It’s important to remember at this point that being bad at crime is not a valid defense.
If you mug a guy and immediately drop the wallet down a storm drain, you’ve still committed robbery. If you steal a car but lock the keys in it, it’s still theft. If you attempt to overthrow your own government and can’t organize people to actually pull it off, you’ve still committed treason.
Trump, despite being a career criminal, is still really shit at being a criminal. Some people will construe his failure to execute with innocence - it is not. It’s incompetence.
I’m oh so thankful Trump was both an incompetent criminal and an incompetent tyrant. Competence could have done unimaginable damage to the US and to the world.
Which is why Ron Desantis terrifies me. It doesn’t look good for him right now, but I wouldn’t have said things looked good for Trump in the summer of 2015 either. And all it would take is for one of these smart tyrants to win a freak election like 2016 and it would be Trump all over again, but much worse.
Trump is not necessarily the only corrupt president ever, he is just stupid enough to let it get out in public.
Not to say you are wrong with anything you’re saying… But I am asolutely confident that pigs will learn to fly before he gets convicted for treason. Did he commit it? A clear “yes” from me (non-American but I dont think that matters; it is basically an accepted fact among all that understand what “treason” usually means in a country-context). Will the prosecutors be able to prove it through a brigade of lawyers? I dont think so.
I’m not a lawyer elsewhere in the world, but the United States has a very specific and very narrow definition for what is considered “treason.” Article III, § 3 of the Constitution states that
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort . . . .
I’m not an expert in this area, but from some legal analysis I’ve come across, another hurdle to convicting on treason is that in order to have an “enemy,” there needs to be an official declaration of war.
Yeah, people have been using the words treason / sedition / insurrection interchangeably. January 6th is obviously not treason, but it’s understandable that people meant something else and got confused.
Oh, absolutely! I was just trying to add to the discourse.
Hopefully his track record of losing in court holds up.
Honestly, with all the shit this disgusting wannabe dictator has already gotten away with, I’ll hold on to celebrations until there is some kind of definitive verdict.
And dont get me started on the sentence even IF they convict him for something. He’s old, he’s rich, he probably still has some buddies in higher places - I’d be absolutely surprised if he would go to a genpop prison. - Even though thats exactly what he would deserve the most.
Charging him is still a big milestone, and setting the precedent that a former president can be charged is still important. But, yeah, sentencing will be the even bigger milestone.
undefined> setting the precedent that a former president can be charged is still important
absolutely. It is already a win, but I believe the US really need the BIG win which would be to actually sentence him for the serious crimes he commited. Literally every other US citizen would be a prisoner long since for doing a microscopic part of what Trump did. The damage that one person did in 4 years, and not just locally in America but also internationally, is sheer unbelievable.
Literally every other US citizen would be a prisoner long since for doing a microscopic part of what Trump did.
While I agree with you 99.9% and emphasize that I strongly so do… as much as the “both sides” bullshit is, in fact, bullshit… the one small bit of it that is true is that our politicians do get away with these things, although most of them are only doing a microscopic part of what Trump has done. But plenty of them - both parties, even the one I always vote for - act poorly and get away with it for any number of reasons, including the fact that we hesitate to go after politicians because it’s seen as political.
But let me finish by reiterating that Trump has been particularly and unprecedently egregious in his blatant criminal acts.
Beautifully said!
But what is the solution on the political front then? Is it to get new blood in while forcing the “old garde” out? How do you do that through brigades of lobbyists that prevent according laws from even existing? From the outside, the whole system seems pretty fucked.
You have two parties. Both are basically center right, one a bit more right than center maybe ( R ). The whole county is “gerrymandered” to the point where the actual voices of the citizens dont seem to matter anymore because some individuals decide for thousands.
While it would certainly be possible to run as an independent 3rd party, the cost of that would be prohibitively high because of the established apparatus the two main parties already have.
The leaders and high functioneers of the two main parties do their damndest to stay there because power is power and wealth is wealth.
Then there is a gigantic lobbying industry, so buying votes seems not only tolerated, but even encouraged. (sidenote: how the fuck did that even happen? not only in America ofc.)
And then there is the media. I do believe free speech is a good thing. But I honestly believe that what eg. Fox News is allowed to send is more like “incitement of the people” than “information”. And I know they get away with it due to calling it “entertainment”. Well, a good third of the country is certainly “entertained” to the point of starting revolts.
To me it seems, the only way would be to get in good (as in, ethically) new blood at the local level, feed and groom them, then rise to regional, then national level. While simultaneously waiting for all of the old garde to die. LoL.
I bet I missed a thousand things but that seems to be the gist of it to me. What are your all opinions?
*edited with paragraphs for readability and fixed the minor mistakes
Sadly this is not Trumps achievement, but the rising hostility of a collapsing ecology coupled with late stage capitalism (read survival-of-the-fittest-mentality). We don’t talk much about it but most people dying in the climate crisis wont die of heatstroke but by wars. It is a struggle to keep your humanity in the process. Sadly there are an increasing number of people who stop bothering.
/edit grammar
You say a lot of sad truths there.
Of course it is not Trumps responsibility that our planet goes to shit. That people get more alienated from each other in general. That hate and fear spread like wildfires while empathy and humanity is in short supply.
But what IS Trumps accomplishment is that he is responsible for giving all those hateful, ignorant people a voice. He normalized saying shit that you’d only dared to share in the company of a few close friends in the past. He normalized the complete lack of empathy towards adversaries. He normalized acting like a complete moron against all evidence. He normalized distrust in science. He normalized abusing a political responsibility for selfpromotion. … I could go on.
But what is really grinding my gears behind that context is, that he normalized all that shit not only in the US, but basically worldwide due to the insane reach he had as US president. Parties in my home country are beginning to do exactly the same shit, not on full-removed level yet but we will get there.
/rant sorry
He used and improved on the populists playbook. All the neofascists worldwide seem to have one shared toolbox. Whereas liberals have more individualistic worldviews than active participants :(
Half of me wants to celebrate the small victories, but the other half says “wake me up when he’s behind bars and loses all of his appeals”.
Right? Call me a cynic but we all know nothing will actually happen. Dude was impeached twice and has been on record with plenty of crimes and he’s still running for president.
Pretty sure he can run for president from jail. From a. Jail cell he would still be the front runner and his base would be donating to him. So he could pardon himself
98% conviction rate. That’s for all cases in general and not just the ones where the accused is on tape talking about the fact that he did the thing that’s in question.
It’s also not for cases where the accused is an immensely-wealthy former POTUS. I’ll be shocked if he suffers any substantial punishment.
I’ll be shocked if they even manage to assemble a jury, for that matter. Pretty much everyone in the country either loves him with religious fervor or despises him and everything he stands for.
I’m so over this game show host.
Why did anyone ever give a fuck about this guy?
He was a bottom of the barrel choice for a gameshow and was super lucky to get the Apprentice.
Any fuckstick could’ve taken that role and run with it
Why did anyone ever give a fuck about this guy?
It’s amazing what 25 years of propaganda will do to people.
Hey now. Calling him a game show host is diminishing his filmography significantly. He was also an extra in Home Alone 2.
True. He also appeared on Saturday Night Live several times. Definitely presidential material.
Idk how many more qualifications you need, really.
The Apprentice did more to convince people he was a brilliant businessman than his work in business ever did.
Totally agree, he’s become less and less relevant and I’m tired of hearing about him… sigh
Let me know when he goes to jail.
Right? We’ve been hearing about how it’ll happen any day now for uh…6 years?
This and Boris Johnson resigning makes my dick hard.
Can we try not to unnecessarily sexualize this? Too much of this and we’ll end up a reddit/twitter clone where people are just aiming for quick/easy zingers
Yeah… sorry that I posted something a bit against Beehaw’s ethos.
I am a British citizen. I have lived under this circus fiesta of a Conservative government for the past thirteen years and watched them slowly erode my rights. They have taken away so much from me and nothing has made my day more than watching Boris resign.
If anything he and his cronies should be in prison.
No worries and thank you for apologizing! You also deserve a right to vent against Boris, and I also happen to agree that he’s worthy of spite 😎
I hope he’ll end up in an actual jail, but if he ever gets sentenced, I imagine it’ll be house arrest at Mar a Lago. He’ll keep living a comfortable life, just with somewhat limited freedom. His kids will continue his grifting empire and make sure daddy is able to keep influencing people.
that seems like the sad truth.
If he was restricted from speaking and posting anything publicly ever again, that would be a great boon to this country, even if justice wasn’t really served.
It really feels like we, as a country, are being dragged towards an ugly 2024 crescendo of the Trump era. This espionage case is going to coincide with the 2024 election.
I wonder if this time we’ll get a mugshot or perp walk out of it? Man, wouldn’t that be something?
It would be a weird catharsis for sure. Don’t get me wrong, I’m fully supportive of any and all charges against the cretin, but at the same time it’s a reminder of just how ridiculous and sad the past 10 years have been.
I really can’t wait until we stop hearing about Trump.
I hate to say it, but I don’t think that day will ever come. Even in death, his die-hards will be slinging conspiracy theories about how he was assassinated or how he was jesus and he’ll ressurect soon to take on mega-hillary’s doomsday army.
Hopefully we can at least confine it to its own section of the internet though.
It’s an extremely pessimistic future you paint, but you are probably right.
Damn, that disturbingly possible
Send him to the shadow realm
Strange as it may sound, the Orange fella is not my first pick for the tumbrel. He is certainly up there in the first 4 or 5. But number one is surely Rupert, followed by the Cock (deliberate misspelling) brothers…
Looking at this as non-partisan as I can… if Hillary wasn’t convicted for essentially doing the exact same thing (and deleting the evidence…) then I really don’t see any way for Trump to be convicted either.
What she did is not at all “essentially doing the exact same thing”. At all. I’m not saying she’s not probably guilty of some crime at some point because most of our politicians are corrupt, but you are absolutely misinformed if you think she kept hundreds of classified documents, showed them off to people, and lied to federal investigators about it.
No evidence of Clinton’s alleged misconduct was found. Plenty of evidence of Trump’s was found. That’s the difference.
Maybe it’s because Clinton is innocent. Maybe it’s because she did a better job covering her tracks. Who knows? Regardless, you need evidence to convict someone, and I hope I speak for us all when I say the alternative is much, much worse.
She willingly hid classified documents on a private server and wiped it with BeachBit so investigators couldn’t recover the evidence. Arguably that’s worse since she could also be charged with destruction of evidence. Come on now… either BOTH Hillary and Trump should be in prison or neither of them should be in prison. Any other interpretation is being willfully partisan.
Arguably that’s worse since she could also be charged with destruction of evidence.
but like. she wasn’t. she was investigated extensively–and that investigation probably cost her the presidency insofar as any singular thing can be blamed for her loss–and she wasn’t. do you have a reasonable explanation for why she’d not be charged with these things if she was actually as damned as you’re suggesting?
Because the FBI is very clearly politically motivated.
i’m… sure you recognize that this is quite literally a case where the facts disagree with your personal feelings. i also i don’t really know where we can go from here if your earnest belief is the FBI was “politically motivated” into clearing Hillary Clinton when it literally said her actions did not rise to the standard of criminality and again, their investigation may be the single biggest reasons she lost the presidency.
Please explain to me how hiding classified documents on a private server with the intent of shielding yourself from oversight and then deleting the evidence when investigators close in NOT enough to rise to the standard of criminality? Seriously, I’m so sick of every online forum being dominated by partisan-talking points. It’s abundantly clear that BOTH OF THEM BROKE THE LAW AND SHOULD BE PUNISHED. However the justice system is 100% broken when rules are applied unevenly. And our entire system is broken when partisan political figures actually cheer the rules being applied unevenly.
Seriously, I’m so sick of every online forum being dominated by partisan-talking points. It’s abundantly clear that BOTH OF THEM BROKE THE LAW AND SHOULD BE PUNISHED.
this is a good sign this won’t go anywhere productive, because your conclusion here can really only follow from the premise that the FBI got it wrong and there is simply no evidence that they did. it is not a partisan talking point to say this–and ironically, what you’re saying is. do you earnestly believe that you are in a better position to assess criminality here than the literal, actual Federal Bureau of Investigation, who spent a full year investigating whether a crime was committed? or better than the Trump-era Inspector General of the Department of Justice, who was critical of Comey’s public handling of the investigation but found no bias in the investigation’s course in either direction? if so then i can’t stop you from believing that, but nobody should take your position seriously and there’s no sense in debating it. you’d be arguing from a position grounded by nothing at that point.
What level of investigation that doesn’t end up charging Clinton with a crime would you accept?
hiding classified documents on a private server with the intent of shielding yourself from oversight and then deleting the evidence when investigators close in
Prove it or it didn’t happen.
Seriously, I’m so sick of every online forum being dominated by partisan-talking points.
My partner in pasta, you are trying to dominate this forum with partisan talking points!
You’re making some very serious accusations there. Before we proceed, I’m going to need to see some equally serious proof.
Why are even we talking about someone that was never President, is not running for President, and is not currently serving in public office?
Investigate and prosecute all criminals. That includes Trump, regardless of who else it also includes.
She did not do “essentially the same thing” for multiple reasons.
- The emails you’re referring to were not classified and went through proper process to get permission to be removed.
- Hillary has already been investigated and cleared, including investigations conducted by the Trump administration.
- Trump was given multiple opportunities to return documents. He kept lying and keeping things even after saying they’d returned everything. There are still classified docs that haven’t been found!
- The nature of the material is orders of magnitude different. Nothing that Hillary has been accused of destroying or storing improperly, even if those accusations were all true, even begins to compare to the sensitivity and importance of the kind of information Trump was hoarding.
- In addition to simply possessing the material he shouldn’t and refusing to give it back, he also breached security by showing sensitive information to people that weren’t allowed and, just at a practical level, has no reasonable need to see it in the first place.
Don’t lie to me!
And brought before his good friend, Judge Aileen Cannon, who was “randomly assigned” to the case.
Sigh. He’s going to get away with bloody murder again.
