You must log in or register to comment.
Signal isn’t federated [1][2][3.1]; it’s decentralized [1][2][3.2]. Though, for all practical purposes, I would generally argue that it’s centralized.
References
- Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
- This is the source code for the server that Signal uses.
- “Signal (software)”. Wikipedia. Published: 2025-01-06T09:34Z. Accessed: 2025-02-1T09:30Z. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software).
- ¶“Architecture”. ¶“Servers”.
Signal relies on centralized servers that are maintained by Signal Messenger. In addition to routing Signal’s messages, the servers also facilitate the discovery of contacts who are also registered Signal users and the automatic exchange of users’ public keys. […]
- ¶“Architecture”. ¶“Servers”.
- “Reflections: The ecosystem is moving”. moxie0. Signal Blog. Published: 2016-05-10. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:40Z. https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/.
- ¶5. to ¶“Stuck in time”. ¶3-6
One of the controversial things we did with Signal early on was to build it as an unfederated service. Nothing about any of the protocols we’ve developed requires centralization; it’s entirely possible to build a federated Signal Protocol-based messenger, but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all. […] [interoperable protocols] [have] taken us pretty far, but it’s undeniable that once you federate your protocol, it becomes very difficult to make changes. And right now, at the application level, things that stand still don’t fare very well in a world where the ecosystem is moving. […] Early on, I thought we’d federate Signal once its velocity had subsided. Now I realize that things will probably never slow down, and if anything the velocity of the entire landscape seems to be steadily increasing.
- ¶“Stuck in time”. “Federation and control”. ¶6.
An open source infrastructure for a centralized network now provides almost the same level of control as federated protocols, without giving up the ability to adapt. If a centralized provider with an open source infrastructure ever makes horrible changes, those that disagree have the software they need to run their own alternative instead. It may not be as beautiful as federation, but at this point it seems that it will have to do.
- ¶5. to ¶“Stuck in time”. ¶3-6
Signal is hostile to third party clients like Molly.im as well
That’s not true. Moxie only had a problem with a fork called “LibreSignal” because it was using their name. He didn’t want users to confuse the apps.
it’s decentralized
No it’s not. From literally your own comment:
Signal relies on centralized servers
For a decentralized messenger use https://delta.chat
it’s decentralized
No it’s not. From literally your own comment:
Signal relies on centralized servers
I was using “decentralized” to mean that there isn’t centralized control over ownership of the service in general — eg anyone can spin up their own server (impractical, imo, pushing it more towards being centralized) and people can use it (making it decentralized, imo (Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do think my usage of the term is appropriate in this way.)), but people who use that server can only communicate with that server (making it not federated). But yes it could still be said to be centralized in that it operates on a client-server model [1].
This is more an argument of definitions, though. I’m not trying to claim anything in bad faith.
References
- Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
- This is the source code for the server that Signal uses.
That’s just open source, not decentralized. I can’t find a definition of decentralization that would even make it vague. From Wikipedia:
Decentralization is the process by which the activities of an organization, particularly those related to planning and decision-making, are distributed or delegated away from a central, authoritative location or group and given to smaller factions within it.
Signal has a central authoritative server and to use it with any other server you have to modify the source code.
That’s just open source, not decentralized.
Depending on exactly how said open source development is occuring, I could argue that open source development is an example of decentralization. It may even be an example of federation (all depending on licensing and development medium imo).
Decentralization is the process by which the activities of an organization, particularly those related to planning and decision-making, are distributed or delegated away from a central, authoritative location or group and given to smaller factions within
Imo this fits my usage of the term — Signal can be broken up into many isolated servers [1] all offering the same service.
References
- Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
- This is the source code for the server that Signal uses.
- Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
- Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
Bro put citations in his lemmy comment 💀
I wish more people did that ngl 💀
I wish Boost understood the collapsible spoilers.
On my client, it’s all expanded and I see all the formatting characters. It looks/works great in a browser though.
I wish Boost understood the collapsible spoilers.
On my client, it’s all expanded and I see all the formatting characters.
Ah dang, that’s good to know (though I’m not sure what to do as an alternative) — I was unaware that the collapsible spoilers weren’t supported on Boost. I guess that means that Lemmy’s markdown formatting hasn’t entirely been standardized across the service. I personally have encountered some inconsistency on the Tesseract UI with CommonMark Autolink [2] formatting where the autolinks don’t even render [1].
I recommend reporting this to the Boost devs to improve Markdown feature compatibility between them and the Lemmy UI.
References
- “Kalcifer” @Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works. To: [“Happy #GlobalSwitchDay”. @squirrel@discuss.tchncs.de. “Fediverse” !fediverse@lemmy.world. Tesseract. sh.itjust.works. Published: 2025-02-01T07:08:40Z. Accessed: 2025-02-02T04:40Z. https://tesh.itjust.works/post/sh.itjust.works/32046509.]. Published: 2025-02-01T09:20:14Z. Accessed: 2025-02-02T04:42Z. https://sh.itjust.works/post/32046509/16425699.
- Raw Text:
Signal isn't federated ^[1][2][3.1]^; it's decentralized ^[1][2][3.2]^. Though, for all practical purposes, I would generally argue that it's centralized. ::: spoiler References 1. Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. <https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server>. - This is the source code for the server that Signal uses. 2. "Signal (software)". Wikipedia. Published: 2025-01-06T09:34Z. Accessed: 2025-02-1T09:30Z. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software)>. - ¶"Architecture". ¶"Servers". > Signal relies on centralized servers that are maintained by Signal Messenger. In addition to routing Signal's messages, the servers also facilitate the discovery of contacts who are also registered Signal users and the automatic exchange of users' public keys. […] 3. "Reflections: The ecosystem is moving". moxie0. Signal Blog. Published: 2016-05-10. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:40Z. <https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/>. 1. ¶5. to ¶"Stuck in time". ¶3-6 > One of the controversial things we did with Signal early on was to build it as an unfederated service. Nothing about any of the protocols we’ve developed requires centralization; it’s entirely possible to build a federated Signal Protocol-based messenger, but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all. […] [interoperable protocols] [have] taken us pretty far, but it’s undeniable that once you federate your protocol, it becomes very difficult to make changes. And right now, at the application level, things that stand still don’t fare very well in a world where the ecosystem is moving. […] Early on, I thought we’d federate Signal once its velocity had subsided. Now I realize that things will probably never slow down, and if anything the velocity of the entire landscape seems to be steadily increasing. 2. ¶"Stuck in time". "Federation and control". ¶6. > An open source infrastructure for a centralized network now provides almost the same level of control as federated protocols, without giving up the ability to adapt. If a centralized provider with an open source infrastructure ever makes horrible changes, those that disagree have the software they need to run their own alternative instead. It may not be as beautiful as federation, but at this point it seems that it will have to do. :::- Rendered:
- In the rendered text there are no links; however, there should be links at the end, as is shown by the CommonMark autolinks in the raw text.
- Raw Text:
- “CommonMark Spec”. John MacFarlane. CommonMark. Version: 0.31.2. Published: 2024-01-28. Accessed: 2025-02-02T04:51Z. https://spec.commonmark.org/0.31.2/#uri-autolink.
- §6.5 “Autolinks”. ¶2.
A URI autolink consists of
<, followed by an absolute URI followed by>. It is parsed as a link to the URI, with the URI as the link’s label.
- §6.5 “Autolinks”. ¶2.
- “Kalcifer” @Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works. To: [“Happy #GlobalSwitchDay”. @squirrel@discuss.tchncs.de. “Fediverse” !fediverse@lemmy.world. Tesseract. sh.itjust.works. Published: 2025-02-01T07:08:40Z. Accessed: 2025-02-02T04:40Z. https://tesh.itjust.works/post/sh.itjust.works/32046509.]. Published: 2025-02-01T09:20:14Z. Accessed: 2025-02-02T04:42Z. https://sh.itjust.works/post/32046509/16425699.
Same with Sync, unfortunately.
Dang 😕. See my comment for a related response.
I recommend reporting the bug to the Sync devs to fix their Markdown formatting to improve feature compatibility between them and the Lemmy UI.
Based.
That person isn’t fucking around.
I take the issue of misinformation seriously. I try to be the change that I wish to see.
I do my best to cite any claim that I make. I would encourage others to do the same.
Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good
My comment wasn’t protesting the use of Signal; it was rather clarifying the misinformation in OP’s post — ie misinformation that Signal is a federated service.
but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all.
The fact that we have a telephone system that works with separate providers contradicts this sentiment. If I want to pick up the phone and talk to my cousin’s puppy in New Zealand, I can do that without creating an account on his provider’s service.
I don’t understand why we’ve forgotten this as a society. Yes, it was difficult to upgrade the phone systems over the past century, but it’s worth it in my opinion. I really wish we’d start seeing government regulation that says “you should be able to talk to someone on a service without having to create an account on said service.” I thought the DMA would do this, but sadly, Whatsapp still requires an account to talk to people using that service. Very disappointing.
How is the puppy?
As for interoperability between services… Monetization of surveillance data. The social media companies are Ad companies, and they make their money surveilling people and selling access. It’s harder to build an accurate model of a person when only pieces of data is available, and they need to have more data then the other Ad tech companies they’re competing with.
Yeah, Moxie has openly shot down the idea of adding federation to Signal, and I’ve never heard them claim Signal was decentralized.
Matrix is federated, distributed, and decentralized.
XMPP is federated and decentralized.
Matrix is […] distributed […].
It is? How so?
Matrix servers keep a copy of any remote room an account on the server has joined, and it’s possible to recreate a room from the copies held on different servers. There are more details I don’t remember, but at a high level that’s how it’s distributed.
Storing messages of remote rooms in addition to local rooms is why people complain about the storage requirements of Matrix servers. They don’t realize it’s distributed.
Interesting — I hadn’t considered it that way.
- Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
Loops really seems like it sucks. You can’t see how long any video is, there’s no way to thumb down really bad videos, and about 80% of all the videos seem like “really bad videos”. I never even used tik tok, but im sure it wasn’t content similar or it never would have gotten popular.
It’s for short form videos, it’s mimicking its competitors UX right now (namely YouTube shorts, Instagram reels and TikTok). Neither has thumb down or show you how long a video is.
As for content… the users generate content, not the software. So… how many good videos have you uploaded?
Loops definitely needs more features but it’s early. I’ve enjoyed it.
loops is still very early in development. people need to tamper their expectations.
I’m surprised this hasn’t been said yet… but what I hate most about Signal is its requirement for a phone number. I don’t want to be identified, and I want to be able to create multiple separate accounts with different identities if I want to.
I also hate the fact that it’s a mobile-first service. Yes, there is a desktop application (and just one really crappy one at that), but it’s clearly designed to revolve first and foremost around your phone and be virtually impossible to use without one. As someone who hates writing on a 3-inch screen, this is a also non-starter for me.
I understand the arguments about perfectionism, but this is too much. I’ll stick with XMPP, Matrix and IRC, thanks.
It’s meant to replace people’s text messaging apps with .i imal barriers to entry. People’s existing SMS/MMS contacts aren’t stored by user account names, but by phone number.
When I added Signal to my device, I was able to open up my existing contacts and go.
They used to allow their client to be used to send unsecured SMS. Then they stopped. Whatever they thought they were doing, they killed the simplest path to onboarding laypeople they had. I kinda gave up on signal after that.
No ones pays for SMS.
My understanding from what you’re writing (and from this article) is that the phone number is really the account number. That’s all well and fine, but then they force you to verify that the number is yours (or at the very least, one that you have access to because you need to receive a confirmation over SMS), so you can’t use something more private. And sure, it makes it a little harder to find your new contact, but I don’t think it’s really that big of a deal - just exchange your other “account number” via some other channel.
Besides, don’t think for a second that when this identifying information inevitably falls into the wrong hands that it will benefit you in any way. “What are you hiding, citizen?” and all that bullshit.
The part of it that bothers me is the sense of entitlement that these companies exhibit. The “Give us your phone number or fuck off” sentiment is something I just refuse to accept. If Google forces us to do the same and we refuse, what makes Signal think that we’ll do it for them when they’re so much smaller by comparison? Especially when you’re trying to claim you’re more secure and private to people that much more tech savvy than average, this just comes off as not understanding your audience very well. I’m sure I’m not the only one that is holding out against using Signal because of this.
The last thing we need is more barriers to entry. People have hundreds of SMS /MMS contacts they’vebuilt up over decades. You can’t expect people to say “fuck all that” and start over from scratch.
And you also WANT verification unless you want some bot setting up an account with my phone number so they can scam people pretending to be me.
It really sounds like your issue with Signal is it’s not the correct service for your use. It’s like declaring a wrench bad because it’s not good at driving nails.
I’ll
That’s why Signal’s spreading and your not.
Loop.video is “currently not accepting new members”.
Damn
I was able to sign up just after seeing this comment. The wait is only 2 days…
It’s also a pretty rough experience tbh. It took about 2 days for me to gain access after signing up. Only usable via the Android sdk or iOS beta app. The infrastructure just isn’t there yet.
Do you mean the android apk?
A LinkedIn alternative, anyone?
Mastodon seems to be filling this niche (professional networking and job seeking) at the moment. I’m curious if something more targeted is emerging yet as well.
Good to hear. Just yesterday I decided to remove my LinkedIn account!
But will it have the lunatics and toxic positivity?
Thank you for this! Bookmarked this post, downloaded the image, sent it to all my friends. Love you!
Yeah. This guide is going to make some rounds in my peer group. I’ve got a lot of dissatisfied friends who just need an easy guide to remind them what to try. Very cool!
Agreed!
Unpopular Opinion Lemmy and PeerTube logo look ugly.
The Lemmy logo always looks so sad or angry to me. Wished he could look happier.
The only ones on the right I really like are signal and friendica. (I had never seen the friendica logo before. This is really well done whoever designed that. Good job.)
All the big guys of course can afford graphic design teams and marketing/PR research.
The notable exception for me is mastodon. While I’m still not a big fan of that logo either, it certainly looks better than the X logo. I’m guessing Musk DOGE’d his design teams in favor of some yes-men.
I like the Lemmy one, but peertubes logo looks like it’s gonna stab my eyeballs in my sleep
The colors in the peertube logo are pretty hideous.
Lemmy is fine, just change the color of background.
Peertube is… well… needs improvement…
They’re horrible
Unfortunately, the switch from YouTube to PeerTube has not worked for me so far. I can’t find a decent instance (not full of right-wing/conspiracy content) with interesting stuff that also allows me to make an account.
Yes finding the right instance on peertube is a nightmare — and also the general lack of quality content, or subtitling, which makes it as good as useless for deaf people like me.
Yeah, it is already hard to find reasons to use it for the average user, so people with disabilities (deafness, blindness,intellectual etc.) probably even have reasons to NOT use them (no subtitles, each instance might have different elements or structure that might be a nightmare for screen readers, it might be too complex for some people, etc.).
Are any of these actually good?
I mean, aside from Lemmy. I tried Mastadon and no one was actually on it, seems like everyone is jumping to Bluesky.
I can vouch for Signal. I got my whole family out of facebook messenger to make a new place for family chat. Even my parents in their mid 60s had no problem changing.
I’m on Mastodon and I see plenty of activity, I don’t miss twitter at all. I see less activity on Lemmy tbh
Depends on how many you follow. Lemmy is way more dead than Mastodon for me.
People only move to Bluesky because they don’t want to change their thinking (picking instances is hard!) and keep using “Twitter”.
I can understand it. I was banned without reason from 3 of the top mastodon instances before even posting anything. Creating new accounts is a hassle, and it’s easy to lose faith in the system when bans happen without reason and none of the instances cared to respond to my appeals. In heinsight, I’m sure the ban was due to my username looking like a hash, but I still find it crazy that the appeals were ignored.
no one was actually on it
It might feel that way at first, but my Mastodon feed is very robust nowadays. You just need to follow more people.
From lemmy.ca
Could the software selection be more diverse? There’s also MBin/Piefed, and Misskey/Sharkey/Firefish/Akkoma/Iceshrimp. Just a suggestion tho. (obviously they can’t all fit in the image, but it would be nice to see an alternative to popular software like lemmy/mastodon.)
PS: Signal is not federated at all, it’s centralized. It should either be replaced with SimpleX or matrix/Jabber.
Could the software selection be more diverse?
Not if you want people to actually consider switching instead of feeling overwhelmed and confused.
If only there was a website that helps you choose, instead of inclining users to just use lemmy and only lemmy.world anyway. (also with mastodon and mastodon.social).
Overall i think more software choices are great but you are right in that it could repel users :/
Signal is better than WA tho.
True, i’ll take it over wa any day.
I keep seeing this type stuff but neither peertube or friendica are genuine replacements at this point, mastodon is weaksauce compared to akkoma or a misskey fork, and loops is alpha software. also yes signal is centralized but it just works and has contact discovery so it owns matrix and xmpp when compared to whatsapp. basically none of this stuff is truly ready
matrix too has contact discovery, if you add your phone number (or email). most users don’t, and that tells me something
they don’t have it on the new app yet, and it’s not super intuitive to begin with compared to signal or whatsapp
the new app is quite pre-release like still. there is also still no new app for the web (and desktop), or is there?
[Signal] has contact discovery so it owns matrix and xmpp when compared to whatsapp
Can you please elaborate? Idk what this means
matrix and xmpp just don’t have the intuitive onboarding that signal has when coming from whatsapp
It means that, because signal mandates you to use your phone as ID, all your phone contacts that have signal are immediately signal contacts. Matrix, XMPP, SimpleX, etc. can’t really do that. That’s by choice, to preserve privacy, but it does create a friction point when migrating.
Hi, I think too many people are focusing too much on the type of software included in this chart. I don’t think the goal of the person that created the chart was to create the ultimate guide to move to the Fediverse or FOSS apps with all the options available for them. I believe it prioritizes simplicity, and it’s clearly directed towards people unaware that these alternatives exist.
Most people I know don’t even know what the Fediverse is, and I think this initiative is for them.
I know that debating which FOSS/Fedi apps are the best is a big matter of concern for people that are already aware of the problems some platform have. But focusing too much on this debate not only creates more division among supporters of FOSS/Fedi, but it is also drawing attention from the main point: Bringing more people to the Fediverse.
Thank you. Please jump in faster with a tldr of this on other posts like this.
How is signal considered part of the fediverse?
My first thought too.
Yeah it’s a bit off if we’re emphasizing a switch to fediverse specifically and not better alternatives in general.
It’s not federated, but it is an open source secure texting alternative.
It should be something like SimpleX
Is there an app for Loops.video?
Edit: Go to https://loops.video/ Make an account, and you should get an email afterwards to download the app from TestFlight or an Android APK.
Yup, its just called Loops, there is a download link once you log in for the APK directly or to the iOS testflight. (On a related note why does everything keep like this picture keep calling it “Loops.video” when it is just called “Loops”? - we don’t call it “Lemmy.ml”, “Mastodon.social” or “Peertube.tv”)
Mastodons have been extinct for millennia and don’t come up in conversation often. Lemmy and Peertube aren’t words at all. Loops is a pretty common word, though, so it needs something extra if you want people to know what you’re talking about.
The problem is the moment there is another instance then loops.video won’t even make sense as that is just the name of the instance and not the application.
There is one ! I have downloaded the APK, but I think there is also a testflight for iOS
:(Oh no, I wasn’t aware, sorry for you :( Hope they take in new users soon
I got in! I just had to make an account & I got an email a few minutes later.
Ah. I see…
Don’t worry, your successor isn’t offering anything big. You’ll still be around for many more days to come.
I don’t get the joke
