I think the main issue is NPC quests, they are complete nonsense and fail automatically based on arbitrary triggers.
I have 300 hours in the game and I’ve only seen the default ending 🫠
Most players use guides to play that game?
Is that common these days?
It doesn’t seem very fun.
It is very fun if you want to be sure that you aren’t missing anything the game has to offer. You never know when a game may put something very obscure in a very limited timeframe.
In the case of elden ring or from software games in general NPC’s are usually so cryptic that solving the puzzles/quests would take you a lot of trial and error which isnt very fun for me.
I’d love a Morrowind type journal to log some of that, totally get I can write things down outside the game, I’d just like to have that option in game especially as I can tend to jump around games and put them down for some time. They’re almost there with the player map markers and NPC markers, even just having the ability to make notes in game would be big for me.
Its still kind of outside the game but steam has an in-built notes tool in the game overlay. I’d argue its still closer to being an ingame tool as it stores the notes per game. I don’t really use the tool much but I wouldn’t be surprised if it also works with non-steam games that you may have acquired through alternative means.
Didn’t know that! Steam has some really nice features, steam input alone is amazing so I’ll definitely give that a try.
There are some things you just can’t do without a guide/wiki. For example the achievements of “collect every weapon/ring”.
Also, the NPC quests are just undoable. There are basically no hints as to how to do them, and there are many ways to permanently lose the quest. Doing correctly a NPC quest going blind as an average player consists of plain luck.
Okay, thanks
I typically play the FromSoft games without a guide the first time through, then look up what I missed for subsequent playthroughs.
You don’t really need to follow a “build” guide because it’s not really that kind of game. There are a lot of weapons to choose from, and some choices in rings, but it’s not like Path of Exile where you have a ton of interconnected, semi permanent changes.
I feel like dark souls games are the only time I ever hear about build guides, what kind of games require build guides if not the dark souls ones?
Man, I guess I should just try playing elden ring already haha.
I mean, a lot of the “build guides” online are just trash from youtubers and whatnot trying to get clicks. You don’t need to follow a complicated youtube video to get “Raise HP and Stamina, get a big spear, get a big shield, stab baddies.”
Do you know Path of Exile? Go look at how that game works. You really want to follow a guide there or you’re likely going to find halfway through that your character is too weak, and you’re too poor to reset it. Other games that are close relatives to Diablo2 often feel like they need build guides. They often have mutually exclusive build choices and a lower player-skill factor.
Oh, I found Diablo 2 totally fine. I played that for the first time maybe 6 months ago? Really fun.
I don’t know path of exile. I’m going to look into elden ring now though.
Interest is piqued since people are telling me it’s more open world than it seems from youtubers and crap like you’re talking about.
Eh, if you want specific endings you need a guide or you can spend hundreds of hours finding and talking to each npc after each boss fight. I don’t have that kind of time and I don’t like getting locked out of things because I only talked to the creepy dead looking guy five times instead of six.
But the game itself is still worth it despite not being able to play it without someone telling you how to play it the entire game?
There’s so many good games that are fun to explore and progress through, why stick with one that you can’t even play unless you follow instructions minute by minute?
I know this game was popular, so there must be some reason.
It’s not about REQUIRING a guide to do anything, it’s that if you’re trying to do one specific thing, or have a bit of assistance navigating exactly where you’re supposed to go next, they’re indispensable.
I definitely could have played elden ring without a guide. Problem is, the world is HUGE, and there are many endings with specific requirements. I don’t have hundreds of hours to pour into one game, even one I’m quite enjoying. I also want to see more of the plot, and that tends to require seeing multiple endings or other specific, exclusive, quest lines. All of which is just more approachable with a guide.
Some of the fun in from soft games comes from the exploration, but a lot of it is mechanically focused. Git gud. That, and being steeped in a fascinating, dark world, tend to be what keep me coming back. A guide helps keep me from feeling too frustrated just wondering where I should go.
So there’s obviously hundreds of hours of not-main content in the elder scrolls games, but if you spent enough time, you’ll find the majority of it without following a guide.
I spent hundreds of hours in each of them.
Does that work with all of these side quests in elden ring, or do I still need to know to walk back and forth against a certain tile three times before lighting a torch to access a lot of the side quests?
It’s less esoteric than that. There’s rhyme and reason to all of the individual steps of the quest lines, but sometimes if you aren’t thinking juuuuuust like the devs want it can be a bit of a leap.
I haven’t played it since launch, but apparently they’ve added map markers for NPCs you have already met, that’ll make it significantly easier to understand what they’re wanting you to do, I think.
Interesting. Well I’m excited to get started, so thanks for all the context
No problem, bud! Elden Ring is a good start for the series, imo, because it’s as open as it is. If you enjoy it, honestly, go back and give the dark souls series another shot after understanding their design philosophy a bit more.
As much as I love the world of elden ring, nothing will compare to the level of interconnected labyrinths that connect back on each other so elegantly that dark souls 1 has. Enjoy your time!
Quest guides like what Belgdore is talking about just tell you who to fight/talk to if you want to finish certain quests or get certain endings. It doesn’t tell you how to fight your battles and usually doesn’t even cover how to get there (unless its especially arcane – looking at you Millicent).
Further, the best part of these kinds of games (at least IMO) is the adventure itself. Working through a zone to a boss and then learning how to overcome the boss is the fun part. It’s the part of the game that makes you hone your skill as a player and “git gud”. Quest guides… stat build guides… pretty much anything short of a zone walkthrough or boss mechanic overview won’t help you with that.
Okay, I definitely like exploring new areas and finding out what’s going on, and kicking ass of course.
I can only remember posts about how to technically defeat this or that regarding elden ring, so I thought that’s all there was to it.
Especially because there were so many posts, but none of them reflected anything except the technical mechanics of dodging after this fire ring or whatever.
I never look at “how to beat certain bosses” guides, usually it’s very hard to understand anyway and I have much more fun learning the bosses movesets myself… Not to say there isn’t a lot of trial and error dying, oh there is a lot of that.
Usually just to figure out a build that lets them explore without getting completely merked
Yeah yeah git gud and whatever but some folks just want to see the cool story without having to become a dodge rolling master.
So you can progress through the game without a guide if you first follow a guide to build up a character, that means you won’t get your ass handed to you every minute?
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So you can progress through the game without a guide if you use a guide first to build a super strong character?
That still doesn’t seem like a very fun game mechanic.
Is that what people mean when they say it’s a souls-like game? A game you can’t play unless you follow a guide?
Or is it more like just fight a boss than another boss and another boss in increasing difficulty?
Because I played another crabs treasure, but eventually had to lower the difficulty and then quit because at that point I’m just doing stupid fetch quests to fight bosses that I literally have to fight dozens of times just so I can make sure to dodge .7 seconds after they raise one of their legs two dozen times?
Looking at you, samurai sushi crab.
That got pretty boring.
Not even that, most souls games will have at least a couple of decently accessible items that will help you turn down the early game pressure if you want to make progress without having to do the whole git gud routine for every next corner in the road with a stone troll sitting on it.
Git gud means repeating confrontations over and over and over until you get used to the minute differences in the enemies movements and timing, and then just doing that for the entire game?
Or is it more like wow grinding until your level increases? Cuz that never grabbed me either.
So do these games have a compelling story or is it just a series of enemies that go from like half a second Dodge opportunity to a tenth of a second Dodge opportunity?
“git gud” in fromsoft games covers a few important skills.
The most important is just paying attention. Way back when Dark Souls 1 was out, people would say the traps in Sen’s Fortress were “bullshit trial and error gameplay”. It’s a narrow hall with a pressure plate, and when you step on it darts shoot out of the wall at you. This can kill you. But if you pay any attention at all you can see the clearly raised pressure plate, and the holes the darts come out of. You can then just roll through the trap or use a shield to block the darts. It’s easy if you notice it. Many of the enemies are placed in ways that if you look around and go slow, you’ll see them with plenty of time to plan.
The second most important skill is probably staying calm. There’s a part in the first game where I fell through a hole and landed surrounded by death lizards. If I had panicked, I would’ve died an especially horrible death. Folks would describe that as “bullshit”- you fall a long way and then suddenly lizards and poisonous gas! But I didn’t panic. I looked around, found the stairs, and ran the fuck away. Once I had a little distance, I was able to kill the lizards. They’re not especially fast or deadly on their own, but their poison gas will ruin your day if you let it. But panicking would get you killed there. There’s also Stormgate in Elden Ring, where you can easily draw the attention of like ten dudes. You know what the answer is there? Run the fuck away. Don’t get tunnel vision. Don’t button mash. Turn around and run.
Third is probably resource management. This is closely related to staying calm. Most of the games have Stamina as a resource. If you just button mash you’re going to have a bad time. You need to not over extend. You’ll have a bad time if you empty your stamina and can’t block or dodge. There’s also spells and heals to manage. You probably don’t want to blow all your big spells on trash. Basic stuff.
Lastly, there’s the stuff everyone talks about and thinks is super important: Recognizing enemy moves and reacting in time. It’s kind of overblown. Most of the enemies attack a lot slower than they feel when you’re in a panic. Plus, you can really mitigate a lot of this by building towards your strengths as a player. I can’t parry, so I don’t try and don’t rely on it. If you’re not good at dodging, probably slap on a tower shield and heavy armor. You don’t really need especially good reflexes to win with a shield + spear build. Magic can also do it, if you’re decent at spacing. And if you really get stuck, use a summon.
People act like you need lightning reflexes to play these games and you really don’t.
Got it, thanks for explaining. That makes the games sound a lot more approachable.
Is there any exploration or world building to elden ring or is it strictly a linear progression from enemy to stronger enemy?
Elden Ring is a huge open world.
From the start you can kind of go where it points you. It will try to teach you without words “you don’t have to fight everything you see.” You can just go around things.
There’s like 3 or 4 little side areas right near the start. The map kind of points you north to a big castle, but you can fuck off to the southern area if you want. Or go to the horrible wasteland. Or figure out how to skip the whole castle and go to the big lake area. Or skip that, too, and go to the nice autumn area. Lots of choices. Not linear.
Git gud is definitely more the first kind of grinding more than the second
Basically the theory that even if it’s like bashing your head against a brick wall, it’s gonna be extremely cathartic when you finally manage to knock that wall down
Hahah thanks for the description, that I totally understand.
I’m not a fan of guides, i think i would rather watch someone play the game. But to find specific things in elden ring, you either play the game 20 times and find it or you just don’t. The thing that i really don’t understand is guides on youtube that are: how to get overpowered soon in eldenring. And things like that. That’s just godmode or similar cheats, but with extra steps. Why not just download some mods with the stuff you want or whatever, because you’re still not really beating the game, you follow someone’s instruction to play “his game.”
I think most players use guides for most games that are more complex than, say, Mario.
Although not necessarily following a guide for every step, usually just looking up stuff that they have questions on.
This is absolutely my biggest complaint with Elden ring. You either use a guide or play the game 100 times trying to figure everything out. There are times where the dude literally tells you he’s going to be in a specific area and then he literally isn’t anywhere close to where he says he’s gonna be. It’s my first souls game and it was pretty frustrating for me.
And tbh I don’t have the time nor patience if I want to game after work.
I dunno. I kind of like it. It means for your first playthrough. You will get a very unique experience, different from your friends. You found different things.
Then again. Who in their right mind understands you can use a prattling pate to tell bock “you’re beautiful”? That’s just insane. Or maybe I’m just not smart enough.
I try to always play games blind but some things in elden ring i hardly understood with a guide. Or you get locked out easily out of quests. I was talking to an npc for a quest and accidentally hit attack and killed him. I was walking past that talking bush like 100 times and had no idea what’s even going on. I thought it’s a glitch, invisible npc or something. Even after looking it up i couldn’t find it. He’s still there in his bush. Or not, i don’t even know. I found out some hard puzzles accidentally. But at the end of the day as long as i get through the game i’m happy. I’m no completionist.
Holy shit dude. Even with a guide I also couldn’t find it. Even playing multi-player with my buddy who already found him previously and knew were he was we still struggled to find him with a guide.
It’s also really easy to lock yourself out of questlines by completing seemingly unrelated objectives. I get that being inscrutable is kind of a hallmark of these games, but I found myself unable to dig into some of the plotlines that really intrigued me.
This is just how fromsoft does things. Pretty weird but having played every souls game to completion and several of their other games just a bit, I feel like you get used to it. The only thing that bothered me about elden ring is that it just didn’t seem to outshine previous titles by enough (or at all) to be particularly excited about it.
I feel like its the same thing as how I can try to hop in something entirely new to me like baldurs gate 3 and there is just so much overwhelming shit that I’m not used to (still put in a good chunk of time and not done yet), but as a long time souls player, ER just felt like a new region and some new items and quests in a souls game. Oh and different timings for otherwise familiar mechanics I guess.
I’m starting a new character for the dlc and i have to say they did improve the quests compared to the launch version. They added a lot of markers on the map to make them easier to follow.
Isn’t the point of these games is that nothing is marked like that? Thats where the replay value and exploration of Fromsoft games shine compared to other developers.
Too many games have quest markers holding your hand the entire way like a guided tour. I see it as an unaddressed problem with open world games.
If everything is marked how can there be exploration or discovery?
right but the previous games were a lot smaller. It would take hundreds of hours to do everything in Elden Ring without a quest guide
I got the platinum in way below 100 hours.
It’s a very very padded game if you played the other ones. Lots of empty sandbox space between the good content.
My first playthrough (100%) was 120~ hours. Subsequent playthroughs (not 100%) were 30~ hours.
Once you realize that 95% of side dungeons are literally just the same filler content with useless summons and weapons, and that you really only need to do, like, 6 to get useful loot for your build, the game gets a lot shorter lol
Which is great tbh, I do the 6 side content dungeons to get my shit, farm the bird to get levels, and then roam aroundbdoing filler content to test my setup. Or be summoned by friends and skip all that.
Most side content dungeons and caves are really similar but distinct enough to be enough to do while waiting for a friend to upgrade their weapons, or to test out mettle against a single enemy (gaols).
It’s a game with a lot of “content” but a very simple main path. I’ve done all possible paths with several characters, most of those in ng+2 and one in ng+4 I think. I asked a friend for help to get the end boss weapon to farm runes more efficiently with a new character to preapre for the dlc. The new weapons have me very hyped.
Oh yeah, for sure. I like it too.
I always find it funny when people react to Myazaki saying the game is supposed to be around 30 hours by going “UUUUHHHH??? My playthrough was like a billion hours???”
Like, yeah, if you do everything it’ll take a while, but it’s clearly not made with that in mind. It’s really easy to just not do the whole thing and still have a decent length playthrough.
Shockingly great attitude for a game studio at a time when so many games are shipped buggy as hell and unfinished
I ran up that dragons wing but didn’t see the room with the ladder just the drop behind the wing, I had to check a guide for that one after a couple days
I hope From continues to make quests that require the player to explore and use their brain, and even do some pretty convoluted steps to activate some quests. Missable content is perfectly fine because I get another try to discover that content the next time I play.
I am so tired of games having quest markers and unmissable content forced upon me.
“I only play games that don’t hold my hand.”
*Uses guides
Pathetic.
Pathetic to not let people play they way they want, maybe?
Like how none of the fanboys want fromsoft to add any sort of easy mode for accessibility? Hypocrites being hypocritical.
I’m one of the fanboys that demands an easy mode so I can get more of my friends gud (and addicted) at FromSoft games and come play with me.
Why should my friends have to put as many hours as I had to, in order to become less bad at FromSoft games? There’s no sense in it, yeah I can carry them and give them all the info they could need, but that takes away from the fun of figuring things out and becoming a parry god.
I do agree with you though, the elitism of many in the community needs to stop (or at least be toned down).
How do you agree with them on elitism? They were being elitist in calling the usage of guides pathetic.
Hadn’t considered that viewpoint, you’re absolutely correct.
When it’s the same people that brag about playing games that don’t hold your hand, it seems hypocritical to find an outside source to HOLD YOUR HAND, doesn’t it?
You have no reason to believe these are exactly the same people. Seems to me you are conflating them because you want to shit on people using guides and at the same time excuse yourself for being an ass because “tHey ArE hyPOcrItEs”.
Even if you were right, what is the problem with people wanting mechanical difficulty and using guides to learn how to master it?
There is an easy mode. You can summon a whole second player for any challenge. If that’s not enough, go level up. Still not enough? Use guides.
Purists are in the minority, hence “most.”
The people in line one of your comment are practically mutually exclusive to the people in line two.
