It is very fun if you want to be sure that you aren’t missing anything the game has to offer. You never know when a game may put something very obscure in a very limited timeframe.
In the case of elden ring or from software games in general NPC’s are usually so cryptic that solving the puzzles/quests would take you a lot of trial and error which isnt very fun for me.
I’d love a Morrowind type journal to log some of that, totally get I can write things down outside the game, I’d just like to have that option in game especially as I can tend to jump around games and put them down for some time. They’re almost there with the player map markers and NPC markers, even just having the ability to make notes in game would be big for me.
Its still kind of outside the game but steam has an in-built notes tool in the game overlay. I’d argue its still closer to being an ingame tool as it stores the notes per game. I don’t really use the tool much but I wouldn’t be surprised if it also works with non-steam games that you may have acquired through alternative means.
There are some things you just can’t do without a guide/wiki. For example the achievements of “collect every weapon/ring”.
Also, the NPC quests are just undoable. There are basically no hints as to how to do them, and there are many ways to permanently lose the quest. Doing correctly a NPC quest going blind as an average player consists of plain luck.
I typically play the FromSoft games without a guide the first time through, then look up what I missed for subsequent playthroughs.
You don’t really need to follow a “build” guide because it’s not really that kind of game. There are a lot of weapons to choose from, and some choices in rings, but it’s not like Path of Exile where you have a ton of interconnected, semi permanent changes.
I mean, a lot of the “build guides” online are just trash from youtubers and whatnot trying to get clicks. You don’t need to follow a complicated youtube video to get “Raise HP and Stamina, get a big spear, get a big shield, stab baddies.”
Do you know Path of Exile? Go look at how that game works. You really want to follow a guide there or you’re likely going to find halfway through that your character is too weak, and you’re too poor to reset it. Other games that are close relatives to Diablo2 often feel like they need build guides. They often have mutually exclusive build choices and a lower player-skill factor.
Eh, if you want specific endings you need a guide or you can spend hundreds of hours finding and talking to each npc after each boss fight. I don’t have that kind of time and I don’t like getting locked out of things because I only talked to the creepy dead looking guy five times instead of six.
But the game itself is still worth it despite not being able to play it without someone telling you how to play it the entire game?
There’s so many good games that are fun to explore and progress through, why stick with one that you can’t even play unless you follow instructions minute by minute?
I know this game was popular, so there must be some reason.
It’s not about REQUIRING a guide to do anything, it’s that if you’re trying to do one specific thing, or have a bit of assistance navigating exactly where you’re supposed to go next, they’re indispensable.
I definitely could have played elden ring without a guide. Problem is, the world is HUGE, and there are many endings with specific requirements. I don’t have hundreds of hours to pour into one game, even one I’m quite enjoying. I also want to see more of the plot, and that tends to require seeing multiple endings or other specific, exclusive, quest lines. All of which is just more approachable with a guide.
Some of the fun in from soft games comes from the exploration, but a lot of it is mechanically focused. Git gud. That, and being steeped in a fascinating, dark world, tend to be what keep me coming back. A guide helps keep me from feeling too frustrated just wondering where I should go.
So there’s obviously hundreds of hours of not-main content in the elder scrolls games, but if you spent enough time, you’ll find the majority of it without following a guide.
I spent hundreds of hours in each of them.
Does that work with all of these side quests in elden ring, or do I still need to know to walk back and forth against a certain tile three times before lighting a torch to access a lot of the side quests?
It’s less esoteric than that. There’s rhyme and reason to all of the individual steps of the quest lines, but sometimes if you aren’t thinking juuuuuust like the devs want it can be a bit of a leap.
I haven’t played it since launch, but apparently they’ve added map markers for NPCs you have already met, that’ll make it significantly easier to understand what they’re wanting you to do, I think.
No problem, bud! Elden Ring is a good start for the series, imo, because it’s as open as it is. If you enjoy it, honestly, go back and give the dark souls series another shot after understanding their design philosophy a bit more.
As much as I love the world of elden ring, nothing will compare to the level of interconnected labyrinths that connect back on each other so elegantly that dark souls 1 has. Enjoy your time!
Quest guides like what Belgdore is talking about just tell you who to fight/talk to if you want to finish certain quests or get certain endings. It doesn’t tell you how to fight your battles and usually doesn’t even cover how to get there (unless its especially arcane – looking at you Millicent).
Further, the best part of these kinds of games (at least IMO) is the adventure itself. Working through a zone to a boss and then learning how to overcome the boss is the fun part. It’s the part of the game that makes you hone your skill as a player and “git gud”. Quest guides… stat build guides… pretty much anything short of a zone walkthrough or boss mechanic overview won’t help you with that.
Okay, I definitely like exploring new areas and finding out what’s going on, and kicking ass of course.
I can only remember posts about how to technically defeat this or that regarding elden ring, so I thought that’s all there was to it.
Especially because there were so many posts, but none of them reflected anything except the technical mechanics of dodging after this fire ring or whatever.
I never look at “how to beat certain bosses” guides, usually it’s very hard to understand anyway and I have much more fun learning the bosses movesets myself…
Not to say there isn’t a lot of trial and error dying, oh there is a lot of that.
I’m not a fan of guides, i think i would rather watch someone play the game. But to find specific things in elden ring, you either play the game 20 times and find it or you just don’t. The thing that i really don’t understand is guides on youtube that are: how to get overpowered soon in eldenring. And things like that. That’s just godmode or similar cheats, but with extra steps. Why not just download some mods with the stuff you want or whatever, because you’re still not really beating the game, you follow someone’s instruction to play “his game.”
So you can progress through the game without a guide if you use a guide first to build a super strong character?
That still doesn’t seem like a very fun game mechanic.
Is that what people mean when they say it’s a souls-like game? A game you can’t play unless you follow a guide?
Or is it more like just fight a boss than another boss and another boss in increasing difficulty?
Because I played another crabs treasure, but eventually had to lower the difficulty and then quit because at that point I’m just doing stupid fetch quests to fight bosses that I literally have to fight dozens of times just so I can make sure to dodge .7 seconds after they raise one of their legs two dozen times?
Not even that, most souls games will have at least a couple of decently accessible items that will help you turn down the early game pressure if you want to make progress without having to do the whole git gud routine for every next corner in the road with a stone troll sitting on it.
Git gud means repeating confrontations over and over and over until you get used to the minute differences in the enemies movements and timing, and then just doing that for the entire game?
Or is it more like wow grinding until your level increases? Cuz that never grabbed me either.
So do these games have a compelling story or is it just a series of enemies that go from like half a second Dodge opportunity to a tenth of a second Dodge opportunity?
“git gud” in fromsoft games covers a few important skills.
The most important is just paying attention. Way back when Dark Souls 1 was out, people would say the traps in Sen’s Fortress were “bullshit trial and error gameplay”. It’s a narrow hall with a pressure plate, and when you step on it darts shoot out of the wall at you. This can kill you. But if you pay any attention at all you can see the clearly raised pressure plate, and the holes the darts come out of. You can then just roll through the trap or use a shield to block the darts. It’s easy if you notice it. Many of the enemies are placed in ways that if you look around and go slow, you’ll see them with plenty of time to plan.
The second most important skill is probably staying calm. There’s a part in the first game where I fell through a hole and landed surrounded by death lizards. If I had panicked, I would’ve died an especially horrible death. Folks would describe that as “bullshit”- you fall a long way and then suddenly lizards and poisonous gas! But I didn’t panic. I looked around, found the stairs, and ran the fuck away. Once I had a little distance, I was able to kill the lizards. They’re not especially fast or deadly on their own, but their poison gas will ruin your day if you let it. But panicking would get you killed there. There’s also Stormgate in Elden Ring, where you can easily draw the attention of like ten dudes. You know what the answer is there? Run the fuck away. Don’t get tunnel vision. Don’t button mash. Turn around and run.
Third is probably resource management. This is closely related to staying calm. Most of the games have Stamina as a resource. If you just button mash you’re going to have a bad time. You need to not over extend. You’ll have a bad time if you empty your stamina and can’t block or dodge. There’s also spells and heals to manage. You probably don’t want to blow all your big spells on trash. Basic stuff.
Lastly, there’s the stuff everyone talks about and thinks is super important: Recognizing enemy moves and reacting in time. It’s kind of overblown. Most of the enemies attack a lot slower than they feel when you’re in a panic. Plus, you can really mitigate a lot of this by building towards your strengths as a player. I can’t parry, so I don’t try and don’t rely on it. If you’re not good at dodging, probably slap on a tower shield and heavy armor. You don’t really need especially good reflexes to win with a shield + spear build. Magic can also do it, if you’re decent at spacing. And if you really get stuck, use a summon.
People act like you need lightning reflexes to play these games and you really don’t.
From the start you can kind of go where it points you. It will try to teach you without words “you don’t have to fight everything you see.” You can just go around things.
There’s like 3 or 4 little side areas right near the start. The map kind of points you north to a big castle, but you can fuck off to the southern area if you want. Or go to the horrible wasteland. Or figure out how to skip the whole castle and go to the big lake area. Or skip that, too, and go to the nice autumn area. Lots of choices. Not linear.
Okay awesome. Thanks, I think I’m going to try it.
I definitely hated the controls and confining movement of dark souls 1 when I tried it, but maybe I’ll enjoy the more rapid response of a modern open world type thing.
Git gud is definitely more the first kind of grinding more than the second
Basically the theory that even if it’s like bashing your head against a brick wall, it’s gonna be extremely cathartic when you finally manage to knock that wall down
So you can progress through the game without a guide if you first follow a guide to build up a character, that means you won’t get your ass handed to you every minute?
Most players use guides to play that game?
Is that common these days?
It doesn’t seem very fun.
It is very fun if you want to be sure that you aren’t missing anything the game has to offer. You never know when a game may put something very obscure in a very limited timeframe.
In the case of elden ring or from software games in general NPC’s are usually so cryptic that solving the puzzles/quests would take you a lot of trial and error which isnt very fun for me.
I’d love a Morrowind type journal to log some of that, totally get I can write things down outside the game, I’d just like to have that option in game especially as I can tend to jump around games and put them down for some time. They’re almost there with the player map markers and NPC markers, even just having the ability to make notes in game would be big for me.
Its still kind of outside the game but steam has an in-built notes tool in the game overlay. I’d argue its still closer to being an ingame tool as it stores the notes per game. I don’t really use the tool much but I wouldn’t be surprised if it also works with non-steam games that you may have acquired through alternative means.
Didn’t know that! Steam has some really nice features, steam input alone is amazing so I’ll definitely give that a try.
There are some things you just can’t do without a guide/wiki. For example the achievements of “collect every weapon/ring”.
Also, the NPC quests are just undoable. There are basically no hints as to how to do them, and there are many ways to permanently lose the quest. Doing correctly a NPC quest going blind as an average player consists of plain luck.
Okay, thanks
I typically play the FromSoft games without a guide the first time through, then look up what I missed for subsequent playthroughs.
You don’t really need to follow a “build” guide because it’s not really that kind of game. There are a lot of weapons to choose from, and some choices in rings, but it’s not like Path of Exile where you have a ton of interconnected, semi permanent changes.
I feel like dark souls games are the only time I ever hear about build guides, what kind of games require build guides if not the dark souls ones?
Man, I guess I should just try playing elden ring already haha.
I mean, a lot of the “build guides” online are just trash from youtubers and whatnot trying to get clicks. You don’t need to follow a complicated youtube video to get “Raise HP and Stamina, get a big spear, get a big shield, stab baddies.”
Do you know Path of Exile? Go look at how that game works. You really want to follow a guide there or you’re likely going to find halfway through that your character is too weak, and you’re too poor to reset it. Other games that are close relatives to Diablo2 often feel like they need build guides. They often have mutually exclusive build choices and a lower player-skill factor.
Oh, I found Diablo 2 totally fine. I played that for the first time maybe 6 months ago? Really fun.
I don’t know path of exile. I’m going to look into elden ring now though.
Interest is piqued since people are telling me it’s more open world than it seems from youtubers and crap like you’re talking about.
Eh, if you want specific endings you need a guide or you can spend hundreds of hours finding and talking to each npc after each boss fight. I don’t have that kind of time and I don’t like getting locked out of things because I only talked to the creepy dead looking guy five times instead of six.
But the game itself is still worth it despite not being able to play it without someone telling you how to play it the entire game?
There’s so many good games that are fun to explore and progress through, why stick with one that you can’t even play unless you follow instructions minute by minute?
I know this game was popular, so there must be some reason.
It’s not about REQUIRING a guide to do anything, it’s that if you’re trying to do one specific thing, or have a bit of assistance navigating exactly where you’re supposed to go next, they’re indispensable.
I definitely could have played elden ring without a guide. Problem is, the world is HUGE, and there are many endings with specific requirements. I don’t have hundreds of hours to pour into one game, even one I’m quite enjoying. I also want to see more of the plot, and that tends to require seeing multiple endings or other specific, exclusive, quest lines. All of which is just more approachable with a guide.
Some of the fun in from soft games comes from the exploration, but a lot of it is mechanically focused. Git gud. That, and being steeped in a fascinating, dark world, tend to be what keep me coming back. A guide helps keep me from feeling too frustrated just wondering where I should go.
So there’s obviously hundreds of hours of not-main content in the elder scrolls games, but if you spent enough time, you’ll find the majority of it without following a guide.
I spent hundreds of hours in each of them.
Does that work with all of these side quests in elden ring, or do I still need to know to walk back and forth against a certain tile three times before lighting a torch to access a lot of the side quests?
It’s less esoteric than that. There’s rhyme and reason to all of the individual steps of the quest lines, but sometimes if you aren’t thinking juuuuuust like the devs want it can be a bit of a leap.
I haven’t played it since launch, but apparently they’ve added map markers for NPCs you have already met, that’ll make it significantly easier to understand what they’re wanting you to do, I think.
Interesting. Well I’m excited to get started, so thanks for all the context
No problem, bud! Elden Ring is a good start for the series, imo, because it’s as open as it is. If you enjoy it, honestly, go back and give the dark souls series another shot after understanding their design philosophy a bit more.
As much as I love the world of elden ring, nothing will compare to the level of interconnected labyrinths that connect back on each other so elegantly that dark souls 1 has. Enjoy your time!
Quest guides like what Belgdore is talking about just tell you who to fight/talk to if you want to finish certain quests or get certain endings. It doesn’t tell you how to fight your battles and usually doesn’t even cover how to get there (unless its especially arcane – looking at you Millicent).
Further, the best part of these kinds of games (at least IMO) is the adventure itself. Working through a zone to a boss and then learning how to overcome the boss is the fun part. It’s the part of the game that makes you hone your skill as a player and “git gud”. Quest guides… stat build guides… pretty much anything short of a zone walkthrough or boss mechanic overview won’t help you with that.
Okay, I definitely like exploring new areas and finding out what’s going on, and kicking ass of course.
I can only remember posts about how to technically defeat this or that regarding elden ring, so I thought that’s all there was to it.
Especially because there were so many posts, but none of them reflected anything except the technical mechanics of dodging after this fire ring or whatever.
I never look at “how to beat certain bosses” guides, usually it’s very hard to understand anyway and I have much more fun learning the bosses movesets myself… Not to say there isn’t a lot of trial and error dying, oh there is a lot of that.
I’m not a fan of guides, i think i would rather watch someone play the game. But to find specific things in elden ring, you either play the game 20 times and find it or you just don’t. The thing that i really don’t understand is guides on youtube that are: how to get overpowered soon in eldenring. And things like that. That’s just godmode or similar cheats, but with extra steps. Why not just download some mods with the stuff you want or whatever, because you’re still not really beating the game, you follow someone’s instruction to play “his game.”
Usually just to figure out a build that lets them explore without getting completely merked
Yeah yeah git gud and whatever but some folks just want to see the cool story without having to become a dodge rolling master.
So you can progress through the game without a guide if you use a guide first to build a super strong character?
That still doesn’t seem like a very fun game mechanic.
Is that what people mean when they say it’s a souls-like game? A game you can’t play unless you follow a guide?
Or is it more like just fight a boss than another boss and another boss in increasing difficulty?
Because I played another crabs treasure, but eventually had to lower the difficulty and then quit because at that point I’m just doing stupid fetch quests to fight bosses that I literally have to fight dozens of times just so I can make sure to dodge .7 seconds after they raise one of their legs two dozen times?
Looking at you, samurai sushi crab.
That got pretty boring.
Not even that, most souls games will have at least a couple of decently accessible items that will help you turn down the early game pressure if you want to make progress without having to do the whole git gud routine for every next corner in the road with a stone troll sitting on it.
Git gud means repeating confrontations over and over and over until you get used to the minute differences in the enemies movements and timing, and then just doing that for the entire game?
Or is it more like wow grinding until your level increases? Cuz that never grabbed me either.
So do these games have a compelling story or is it just a series of enemies that go from like half a second Dodge opportunity to a tenth of a second Dodge opportunity?
“git gud” in fromsoft games covers a few important skills.
The most important is just paying attention. Way back when Dark Souls 1 was out, people would say the traps in Sen’s Fortress were “bullshit trial and error gameplay”. It’s a narrow hall with a pressure plate, and when you step on it darts shoot out of the wall at you. This can kill you. But if you pay any attention at all you can see the clearly raised pressure plate, and the holes the darts come out of. You can then just roll through the trap or use a shield to block the darts. It’s easy if you notice it. Many of the enemies are placed in ways that if you look around and go slow, you’ll see them with plenty of time to plan.
The second most important skill is probably staying calm. There’s a part in the first game where I fell through a hole and landed surrounded by death lizards. If I had panicked, I would’ve died an especially horrible death. Folks would describe that as “bullshit”- you fall a long way and then suddenly lizards and poisonous gas! But I didn’t panic. I looked around, found the stairs, and ran the fuck away. Once I had a little distance, I was able to kill the lizards. They’re not especially fast or deadly on their own, but their poison gas will ruin your day if you let it. But panicking would get you killed there. There’s also Stormgate in Elden Ring, where you can easily draw the attention of like ten dudes. You know what the answer is there? Run the fuck away. Don’t get tunnel vision. Don’t button mash. Turn around and run.
Third is probably resource management. This is closely related to staying calm. Most of the games have Stamina as a resource. If you just button mash you’re going to have a bad time. You need to not over extend. You’ll have a bad time if you empty your stamina and can’t block or dodge. There’s also spells and heals to manage. You probably don’t want to blow all your big spells on trash. Basic stuff.
Lastly, there’s the stuff everyone talks about and thinks is super important: Recognizing enemy moves and reacting in time. It’s kind of overblown. Most of the enemies attack a lot slower than they feel when you’re in a panic. Plus, you can really mitigate a lot of this by building towards your strengths as a player. I can’t parry, so I don’t try and don’t rely on it. If you’re not good at dodging, probably slap on a tower shield and heavy armor. You don’t really need especially good reflexes to win with a shield + spear build. Magic can also do it, if you’re decent at spacing. And if you really get stuck, use a summon.
People act like you need lightning reflexes to play these games and you really don’t.
Got it, thanks for explaining. That makes the games sound a lot more approachable.
Is there any exploration or world building to elden ring or is it strictly a linear progression from enemy to stronger enemy?
Elden Ring is a huge open world.
From the start you can kind of go where it points you. It will try to teach you without words “you don’t have to fight everything you see.” You can just go around things.
There’s like 3 or 4 little side areas right near the start. The map kind of points you north to a big castle, but you can fuck off to the southern area if you want. Or go to the horrible wasteland. Or figure out how to skip the whole castle and go to the big lake area. Or skip that, too, and go to the nice autumn area. Lots of choices. Not linear.
Okay awesome. Thanks, I think I’m going to try it.
I definitely hated the controls and confining movement of dark souls 1 when I tried it, but maybe I’ll enjoy the more rapid response of a modern open world type thing.
Sounds like I was just being a negative Nancy!
Git gud is definitely more the first kind of grinding more than the second
Basically the theory that even if it’s like bashing your head against a brick wall, it’s gonna be extremely cathartic when you finally manage to knock that wall down
Hahah thanks for the description, that I totally understand.
So you can progress through the game without a guide if you first follow a guide to build up a character, that means you won’t get your ass handed to you every minute?
St
I think most players use guides for most games that are more complex than, say, Mario.
Although not necessarily following a guide for every step, usually just looking up stuff that they have questions on.