It feel like we’re losing to Google, day by day. They aren’t killing AOSP directly, but they are making it useless step by step.
Now it’s Google Play Services, Play Integrity checks, installation source checks… more and more apps just refuse to run without GMS. Banking apps? Most of them don’t work. And it’s only getting worse. I run vanilla AOSP on my main profile, no Play Services. I keep GMS only in my work profile for the apps that absolutely need it. But now even some regular apps that don’t need any play services won’t work on my main profile anymore. They simply block your from running , like le chat.
Maps is google’s most important app there is no way to run without play services. Sure we can use webview or gmaps wv, but they don’t provide turn-by-turn directions. Earlier maps used to work without play services, but two years ago, an update stopped it from working. Now that old version is out of date and no longer works.
Google is slowly making GMS very important to run. The problem with GMS is they require to run as system app and has to have all the permissions by default.
Hope EU puts pressure to make google allow apps to run independently without GMS or atleast install them as user apps(like graphene os sandboxed play services).
If we keep going on like this, AOSP can only run fdroid apps in the future.
I highly reccomend comaps which has turn-by-turn directions and doesn’t require Google services.
transit routing still doesn’t work iirc, though gtfs stuff is in development
CoMaps is quite nice.
There are also still companies selling navigation devices that mount in a car windshield, assuming the car doesn’t already have one built in.
Pro tip - those navigation devices also often have an accident camera that records if it feels an impact - which is a good idea anyway.
Wow, supports Android Auto too!
Edit: Says it supports Android Auto, to be clear - not tested by me, and issue(s) reported below.
I run GrapheneOS and organic maps was working fine with android auto. You have to enter in developer options to allow third party apps tho. I was using it in a restricted profile with only proprietary apps (like banking apps). Comaps is a fork of organic maps so it should work too.
Were you running the version on Google Play or the one from f-droid? I have a suspicion that the Google Play version has some extra sliminess that allows it to work with Android Auto.
Yes I was running the Google Play version. AFAIK it doesn’t work with the version from FOSS platforms unfortunately. It was a few month ago. I got tired of it and ditched it altogether. I find that a phone holder does the job with much less hassle.
I have the FOSS version installed and I ended up buying a phone holder as well. Music playing apps can with with AA, but it looks like navigation doesn’t unless there is some trick I haven’t figured out.
You sure about this? I haven’t been able to get it, or any other maps app on GrapheneOS, to play nice with Android Auto.
Not at all, no! Just going off the support article that says it does. Only just installed it, will try it out with my car this weekend at the latest.
Please respond back if you can get it to work, navigation has always been a big sticking point with using GrapheneOS.
Will do, I’m also running stock on a Find N5 though, so not apples to apples with Graphene by any means.
Yeah, this is a problem. I attempted to switch to GrapheneOS just a month ago and had to roll back to stock Android. One of my banking apps worked, but 3 others didn’t. My 2FA app didn’t work. I stopped receiving important texts as they were previously RCS and that refused to validate no matter what I did.
Google has made it extremely hard to degoogle.
Google has made it extremely hard to degoogle.
Just remember that there are no nice reasons why they are working this hard to keep your phone captive.
We can argue about how bad it will get, but there’s only worse things coming from this effort.
Oh, totally, which is why I am working towards as much decoupling as possible. I plan to replace my Nest gear with Ubiquity for cameras and stuff as I can afford it, and eventually set up my own offline automation server. This can only end badly for consumers.
The collusion between services like Authy and Google indicates this to me, but it’s also effective and means I have to pivot in slower degrees. I am encountering similar issues moving to Linux from Windows, so this is a full Silicone Valley issue.
With respect to 2FA, if you want to be more ready for any future next time, you could migrate to an open-source TOTP app. E.g. andOTP. I use this one, it’s fine. The underlying standards don’t change in decades, so you can choose any compatible client and be without trouble for years and years. And it may be good to do in any case, googlified phone or not. Good apps also tend to provide password-protected backups.
I have no knowledge about RCS though, never used it so can’t tell. Otherwise GrapheneOS user for ~2 years, before that LineageOS, before that CopperheadOS for another few years.
Your absolutely right and I will be moving to an open source TOTP solution going forward, it just sucks that great services keep getting enshitified and we have to keep moving to better pastures. LastPass to Bitwarden, now Authy to something else.
It is only slightly on topic, but I’d like to give a hateful shout out to Ticketmaster/Live Nation’s new “mobile only” ticketed events that require you to have an iPhone or fully Google blessed Android phone. They do not allow you to use a QR code or printed ticket anymore, only their app with a constantly changing bare code or Google wallet (unsure of the IOS experience).
I am going to a concert this weekend and I either have to dig up some old phone that can work with this app or sell my tickets.
I stopped going. Fuck it. Not giving in to their bullshit.
That’s how I’m feeling I will go after this concert since they already have my money.
It was the fees for me. Their CEO needs to be Luigi’d for leading a parasitic company that has made so many music venues go under.
The local folks probably deserve tye attendance more anyway. So many nepo babies…
I’ve never had an issue loading my tickets in the browser.
Then you weren’t at one of the new “mobile only” ticket events. https://help.ticketmaster.com/hc/en-us/articles/9786597785617-How-do-I-use-Mobile-Entry-tickets
Of the largest android sellers, only samsung requires gplay. Xiaomi, vivo, oppo, realme, honor, are all chinese companies that require non-bundled google play for their domestic (and maybe other countries?) releases. Google can’t alienate these sellers, and if they did, all of these companies would create their own AOSP fork (or just switch to HarmonyOS)
I recently bought a xiaomi android tablet that doesn’t have google play services luckily.
Xiaomi is terrible when it comes to locked bootloaders unfortunately.
deleted by creator
EU won’t be too friendly either given the nature of their recent identification app. You should still write to your legislators, but they’re a mostly tech-illiterate bunch, so expect it to be a low ROI activity.
Really do consider donating to projects like GrapheneOS. The GrapheneOS team are a very passionate and clever group, and I’d like to think that they can at least give us something to work with, even if Google completely cuts the cord. Hopefully they can also secure an additional revenue stream once they release their own phone.
If it really does all fall through and there’s no deGoogled way to run Android apps, I’ll keep a separate phone, preferably with a removable battery, with regular Android just to host the proprietary apps. Treat it as a work phone, i.e. power off when not needed, don’t connect to my main home network, don’t do anything that doesn’t need to be done on it. Proprietary apps only make up a small fraction of my mobile workflow, so everything else stays on another phone that respects my privacy.
I am thinking a tablet with Linux and a hotspot rather than phone number. Maybe supplement with a dumb phone in a Faraday bag for your phone, Iike on Swisscows.
if u rely on GMS so much, have u tried replacing it with microG?
deleted by creator
Real question is
Why can’t a rooted android fake play services?
I thought that was the reason for the cloned app that runs outside the Insular sandbox. I am dumb on the subject and making assumptions though.
Maps?
Use OsmAnd and MagicEarth? I’ve been using it for years now. Works fine.
Also Theres comaps
Comaps has been awesome for me
Linux phones won’t go anywhere, so you should probably donate to GrapheneOS and hope they have enough in the bank to fork android by the time it’s completely discontinued.
What will it take to make a phone that comes with GrapheneOS directly? I have access to some good connections in China, what phone spec could we prototype to have a phone coming with GrapheneOS? I am ready to throw my savings at starting this business. Or should I reach out to GrapheneOS people directly? (Lineage works also)
GrapheneOs is currently discussing some stuff with OEMs but more help wouldn’t hurt I bet.
As per my 30min research, GrapheneOS depends heavily on pixel internals, but I will highjack one of the mastodon posts maybe somebody will spoonfeed me the definitive answer.
I live in a very low cost area, hopefully I will manage to get a nameless phone to run GrapheneOS or LineageOS at low cost, forward most of the income to the open source projects.
It might be too naive but I am giving it a shot.
deleted by creator
Thank you! GrapheneOS isn’t an option then, I will wait for their phone.
I guess I could still shoot my shot with LineageOS.
If you wanted to talk to the Graphene folks the best spot seems to be their matrix rooms rather than masto.
I believe it was also because Pixels were some of the only phones that allow properly relocking the bootloader, but I could be mistaken.
The GrapheneOs team is quite particular about hardware.
I would gladly purchase a phone that came preloaded with LineageOS.
“Better than we have now.” often wins over waiting for perfection.
Not either of those, but have you seen Brax3 phone?
That looks like exactly what I’m looking for in my next phone. Thanks.
There are a million maps apps, even google itself has two (Waze). Banking is easily accessible thru a web browser. Also, rooting your phone gives you ability to fake a lot of the requirements to make stubborn apps run.
I am sorry I tried many many maps apps, but none come close enough to replace google maps completely. No reviews, photos, live traffic, raw data etc. Google maps is truly miles ahead of the alternatives, especially in India.
Idk about India but here in the Netherlands almost all google reviews are fake. They’re not a good indicator of quality.
True, but the pictures are useful though. I can tell a decent pizza from a shite one from a picture.
It’s easier and nicer. But it’s also shitty because of what you mentioned.
The thing is, that’s how it’s going to stay unless people stop using it. You can get this info you mentioned somewhere else, or simply don’t need it, as I said, yes it’s harder and less nice to live without it, but it’s not like you can’t live without live traffic data or whatever. Start using CoMaps, contribute to open street map, leave reviews on other review aggregators, etc etc
There’s many navigation apps that have traffic, like Magic Earth which 100% runs without GMS.
For review you can use gmaps wv or TripAdvisor.
Here We Go has traffic and TripAdvisor integration, but I’m not sure whether it runs without GMS.
CoMaps has it on the docket to add opt in traffic at some point.
I can’t speak to any other countries, but in the states, Magic Earth has been great for me. Been using it for over two years now, several different regions of the USA. It’s not as good as Google Maps, but it’s plenty good enough for my needs.
Navigation and routing is solid, traffic data is acceptable, and the dashcam feature is awesome.
Photos and streetview are the most important features for me, otherwise I would be 10x more anxious going somewhere for the first time.
rooting your phone gives you ability to fake a lot of the requirements to make stubborn apps run.
Rooting also completely breaks the ability to run some apps with no recourse for spoofing the fact that it’s a rooted device.
Which ones? It’s pretty easy to pass Strong Integrity.
Passing strong integrity check isn’t always enough. My banking and government 2FA still don’t work on rooted devices (or graphene with locked bootloader and play services)
What is a good alternative that actually does navigation and searches on places as well as gmaps? I’ve been using OsmAnd and it’s absolutely dogshit compared to it. Even the navigation, the arguably most important part, is pretty bad.
Edit: actually spent some time looking again, and CoMaps does this quite well. This is replacing OsmAnd+ for me.
Co maps is mostly garbage for places. Is missing my Wegmans for fucks sake 🤣
Just a heads up for your continued testing.
CoMaps uses OpenStreetMap data, which is populated by the public, so you can fix your problem easily yourself by submitting the data you need that’s missing.
You can do this right from inside CoMaps, but also StreetComplete is another great app option for doing so.
I’ve done this for missing stuff in my area, my edits got verified and accepted very quickly. It’s much nicer than waiting for Google to maybe update their shit when it’s wrong.
I don’t know what Wegmans is, but all the places I’ve tested so far was found, even small local artisanal shops in the town I live in.
I only use Lineage and have done so for years without any problems since CyanogenMod 10.1.
Do remember that it is the choice of the developers to use google services and nothing to do with google.
When you say “Le Chat”, do you mean Mistral AI assistant/chatbot? Its probably stopped working since GPT‑5.
Currently it is not possible to run “Le Chat” ai on a phone without google,
Again its the devopers choice. They could develop a non-google Le Chat.
who on earth needs a chatbot on a phone?
I have never have any problems finding open source alternative apps.
MAPS: Comaps, Organic Maps and MagicEarth, all provide Turn by Turn navigation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn-by-turn_navigation
I dont use any Banking Apps. Why do you need a banking app? I login to my bank in the comfort and safety of my home.
Lineage:
https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/
If you must use google try E/OS. It Uses MicroG and works very well.
microG is a FLOSS implementation of Google play services
I mostly agree with what you’re saying. But it’s really easy to make an argument for why an alternative works perfectly when you say “you don’t actually need that” every time something comes up that doesn’t work.
With a web browser and user agent spoofing, that’s basically how it works. I don’t want any Facebook/Meta apps on my phone, so I use a desktop Google Chrome rule for all Meta URLs in my browser and user the web versions. Mobile is slowly taking over, but most things have a web version.
Unfortunately, that doesn’t work for everything. The Quest 3 requires an Android or iOS device to set up. At least an old cell phone on a throwaway Google account works for most of these, since they don’t need to be used often.
I keep my old smartphone precisely so I can install banking apps and other annoyances.
Feel free to track the burner phone that stays on the same location, turns on once a week, is got tape on the cameras and never uses the browser.
I’m not sure what the point of the post is? Is it to share frustration? Searching for a solution? Sorry, I may be not good at inferring this, but I don’t get it.
IF you are in solution-finding mode, then there are a few things that you can do.
- You can use those banks that work without google. I’ve found 2 in the Netherlands, for example. One of them stopped working a while ago, I’ve wrote about that to their support and had to discontinue, withdrawing all my funds using a Dutch procedure for full withdrawal from a bank. After half a year or so I’ve noticed they’ve fixed it and work without google again. I’ve returned as well (it’s convenient for me to have 2 banks). I’m sure as hell banks watch for their usage statistics and wouldn’t like seeing people leave their bank if it can be fixed with a simple reversal of whatever the dev team did lately.
- You could try Linux phones such as PinePhone to see which use cases can it already cover. 30%? 70%? 90%? You’ll know what to even wait for in the Linux landscape to be able to switch. You’ll get a bit of power or mental control if you acquire this knowledge.
- Funnily, you can expect some good news coming from all those fights between US and China, because that makes a LOT of devices ship without google services. And some people in your county (I assume it’s not China, otherwise you wouldn’t have these problems) may have phones bought there, so you won’t be alone when pushing for such changes.
Can you elaborate which banks those were? Or you if there is a curated list of banks that work on custom ROMs?
Dutch banks working without google are: BUNQ and ASN Bank (EDIT: and Triodos).
BUNQ has the built-in QR scanning functionality broken (the one for iDEAL, if you’re living in NL you know), but that’s acceptable because it works to scan the QR in Binary Eye, which in turn opens the bunq app and the payment can be made easily.
ASN just works, all features that I’ve tried I think. (This one is only in Dutch though.)
Banks that I’ve tried few years ago and they didn’t work: ING, ABN AMRO, Rabonbank, Tridos, possibly few others that I forgot.
Also, lately I’ve started using some of those “international” ones, not so focused on NL. I’ve found that Wise (pure web, haven’t even tried their app) and Revolut (app) seem to work well on my de-googlified phone. Hope that helps!
EDIT: re-worded the first line of my message to be indexable by search engines, because that may be useful for future readers.
Thanks! I’m on ING now and every time i look it up for ING i get conflicting answers, Probably because it differs for each country they operate in (and people don’t always specify). I’ll look into the other ones.
(And noteworthy that ING has a million of different apps)
I’ve re-tried ING now, the app starts fine and the first steps to create an account are fine (I went up to the phone number and email). However, IIRC they used to break on further steps such as ABN AMRO breaking when wanting to scan my ID card for verification. But then again, you may not need it if you already passed that verification. Anyway, just letting you know if you’re curios; I’m aborting here.
Hi, I can add that Triodos works like a charm for me on a completely ungoogled /e/os And shoutout to @vas for actually telling banks and presumably other institutions that they need to be platform neutral or lose their custom. That’s my preferred way out of this mess. Goog luck ungoogling, everyone
Good to know! I was really eyeing Triodos back in the day, due to what looked like a good ethical stance, but it didn’t work out at the time. Nice that they’ve fixed it! (I’ve updated my message above as well to include the bank.)
Thanks for the useful feedback.
Wise requires me to use the app as 2FA in order to log into their web interface. How do you log in without the app?
You can use andOTP if you want a FOSS app on Android. If you’re a hardcore no-Android-at-all user (or considering), you can use KeePassXC on the desktop. This kind of defeats the purpose of 2FA, but on the other hand people with KeePassXC tend to have strong passwords due to ease of their maintenance, so you don’t need 2FA as much to begin with.
TL&DR; use andOTP on Android or KeePassXC on Linux Desktop.
What puzzled me was that I had no option to input a TOTP. The website would only send me a notification through the Wise app to allow the login.
I have just discovered that the waiting screen on the website had a small, clickable text ‘Did not receive a notification?’ that leads to other options, including TOTP. That’s so much better!
Thank you, I would never have discovered this if you had not said that this was possible.
deleted by creator
Maybe postmarketOS?
