I think it’s pretty safe to say that the majority of us are here to avoid another corporate takeover of our preferred platforms. It would seem to me to be a tad irresponsible to allow Facebook into our space with open arms, allowing them to hoover up our data. I would love to keep using Lemmy.world, but will happily change instances if need be, and I feel many share that sentiment.
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Well, right now Meta is pushing, not pulling. Meaning, Threads content can be displayed on Masto, but not the other way around.
IMHO, the bigger threat is having Threads content completely dominate other activity pub clients. Other clients / communities could get dependent on it. Then Meta is basically a drug dealer with leverage.
Data collection doesn’t bother me too much. I’m not going to install their client and all of the behavior trackers that come with it, and my activity pub content is already freely available to query on the internet. If they want it, they already have access to it. Everyone does.
Since lemmy can’t pull from mastodon/threads, it seems like a complete non issue for now.
Correct. This is an issue for Masto, not Lemmy. It may never be an issue for Lemmy for all we know. Lemmy is focused on following activity pub communities not individual people.
Interesting. It seems that Lemmy can see Mastodon users and send private messages to them. And I believe Mastodon users can create Lemmy posts, so potentially Threads users could do that too once Meta enables two-way communication.
It all depends on how the Meta teams implements ActivityPub and which parts of it.
God why are all crying about XMPP? If you want to make it more popular just start using it yourself. If you don’t have anyone to speak with over there just speak with me (seriously DM me).
Also we have a lot of open source alternatives by now so XMPP is just one of many good options which means that the people will go whith what they feel comfortable with. Trust me, if XMPP would be the only decentralized, open source chat protocol around I’d be using it exclusively and many others would probably too.
This article is so misleading. XMPP died for the same reason all technology dies. No one used it. Even if Google hadn’t ever used it, it would still be dead. I know this because Google Talk and ALL Google chat apps are dead. WhatsApp killed them all.
You are more correct than they are but are still wrong*. A lot of the interest in XMPP died after they started pursuing standardization and of course after Google close off their servers. It never had a ground swell before or after that either though. XMPP however, still exists to this day. And has become integrated into internet of things, protocols for communications between devices and as well as more comprehensive communication services such as SIP. They literally just had their 2023 Google summer of code complete a month or so ago?
But yeah XMPP is not dead. Unfortunately, it was a surpassed by a number of other services that offered more. Evolving faster than XMPP could while looking to become standardized. It only lost relevance to most. Not it’s life. For what it’s worth since 2000 or 2001, there’s hardly been a day that I have not been logged in to an XMPP server. I’m logged into one right now.
I like your perspective. More people need to realize that they are responsible for what they put out there.
Data collection doesn’t bother me too much. I’m not going to install their client and all of the behavior trackers that come with it, and my activity pub content is already freely available to query on the internet. If they want it, they already have access to it. Everyone does.
I will be able to follow and see friends’ posts and sports teams’ posts through Mastodon without needing a Meta account nor install their shitty apps.
All I posted via fediverse is public already, traveling into some obscure instances, so I don’t care if Meta uses or shares my public posts.
This, the real threat is the amount of content that federates out possibly hurting others servers’ performance as their enterprise kit will scale better.
even if they are only “pushing”, there will still need to be profile data exchanged with Threads in order to access it, if they have http signatures enabled (i.e. authorized fetch under mastodon)
Threads content completely dominate other activity pub clients. Other clients / communities could get dependent on it. Then Meta is basically a drug dealer with leverage.
How? Because this doesn’t make an yota of sense to me.
Flipboard federated. Are you flooded with news from them?
Given that we’ve watched communities like Reddit become more closed, I would rather Lemmy not do the same. The best thing an instance can do is keep them on a very tight leash, and kick out at the first sign of a rule being broken.
What Lemmy needs, above anything, is engagement. Be open to the users from Threads, instead of punishing them because you hate Meta. Many people joined Lemmy because the idea of the fediverse meant freedom to choose, and while instances are free to allow/deny who they want, it shouldn’t be a detriment to users that want to experience Lemmy.
Defederating Threads doesn’t make us a closed community. All that’s going to happen is we’ll basically end up on Threads without actually being on Threads. People will either migrate there or to an instance that doesn’t have Meta/Facebook everywhere.
That’s not how EEE works at all. Facebook will embrace Lemmy, extend/improve Lemmy, and then extinguish/disadvantage the native Lemmy community, until the Lemmy server serves so little of a purpose it is shut down.
How? The unhinged ranting that threads will federate with mastodon, not Lemmy. And the frothy incoherent rage that Lemmy needs to defederate from something that doesn’t currently exist and will not impact them significantly in any way once they do exist. Makes me think none of you have actually thought this through in a rational manner.
Ahmm, lemmy.world is already federated with mastodon as well, fediverse is one network of federated instances, it is not one for mastodon and another for lemmy. You can interact with mastodon post already from here
Yes. And you’d struggle to find where someone did that. It’s so awkward and uncommon it’s truly a non issue.
Except that Threads is not going to engage mutually so this argument is moot. If we federate with Threads but they do not federate with us, what exactly to we have to gain from this besides Meta’s rage algorithms?
Great how everyone saw one post from Mosseri a week ago and decided to just ignore all following posts. The one-sided federation atm is TEMPORARY. They will fully federate in the upcoming months.
Then we shouldn’t even be considering our federation until they are willing to properly join the community.
Theyre free to join an instance that isn’t owned by meta
Same. Defederate - or rate limit - them if the load should become an issue.
I can see it playing out fine either way, although it’s certainly more turbulent federating if we are to see their content and it washes out the other communities (which to my understanding is unlikely since it’s user based content like Mastodon). As others said, they already have our data, too.
Instead, I just wish the more… extreme communities didn’t defederate already. I’d love to see Meta users react to Hexbear or Exploding Heads in an unfiltered, unadulterated way (or those much much worse instances that everyone defederates from). Instead they get us relatively tame, generally nerdy Lemmy users. I didn’t even know what a Tankie was back in the before times!
Yes.
allowing them to hoover up our data
Hate to break it to you, but the fediverse is public. Most instances don’t even require an account for read-only access. If Facebook wants your data they don’t need to federate to get it.
Don’t even need that. Fifteen minutes To set up your own instance. The entirety of Lemmy still fits on a decent thumb drive.
And realistically, there’s nothing stopping them from setting up a bunch of nondescript shell instances to gather data anyway.
Whichever way instances decide to go there’s a few things people should remember:
- We’re lucky to have this option even if it’s divisive at times.
- It’s not always about what we know will happen, sometimes it’s concern over possibilities we couldn’t even imagine at the time.
- Growth is great but there’s infrastructure, moderators and policies that can be overwhelmed.
- Defederation can be reversed at any time if things change.
I thought Threads was supposed to be a competitor to twitter? I don’t understand how they’d even integrate with Lemmy instances. I’m here to see posts from boards/forums/subs, not from specific people. Would posts from random Threads user profiles start showing up on the main page?
No. Lemmy integration of ActivityPub doesnt enable that. Either Threads or Lemmy would need to change their implementation of ActivityPub in order for us to see Threads posts. Currently that’s impossible. All federation happens beneath the hood and isnt shown.
So what would federating involve, then? How would it change how lemmy.world users see lemmy.world?
Nothing. Currently it would not be visible at all. In the backend however federating means that the Threads servers might - at some point in the future - fetch data from lemmy.world (and not display it either, only let it sit on the server).
But Meta can already do that through user accounts or through a honeypot/passive instance, correct? All public conversations are open, as are all public user profiles.
True
Seconded. Fuck Meta.
Hard agree. Fuck da Zuk.
People who keep touting the point that defederating from Meta means we are cutting people off from fediverse are picturing this situation wrong. Based on what I’ve read, people see this little island of people compared to the mainland where there will be physical barrier because shouldnt tear down the bridge.
But the net isnt like that. People have just as much freedom creating a Threads account as they do a Lemmy or Mastodon account.
And don’t say that the fediverse is too difficult to understand for the average person. That kind of rhetoric is what will push people away.
Everyone needs to be patient with growth. It’s not going to happen in a year just like it took years for reddit to grow. I do believe that more and more people will be interested in the fediverse once they realize that corporate oversight is non existent here. And that can only happen if we keep the major instances disconnected from Meta or any for profit company.
But the net isnt like that. People have just as much freedom creating a Threads account as they do a Lemmy or Mastodon account.
It’s not about creating an account or not, it’s about the conversations, who views them, how inclusive are they to all.
The people who would be making comments are not the same people that are running Meta.
And don’t say that the fediverse is too difficult to understand for the average person. That kind of rhetoric is what will push people away.
It is a barrier entry though for many (for whatever reasons). I don’t think you can just hand wave it away like that; that’s not constructive.
Everyone needs to be patient with growth. It’s not going to happen in a year just like it took years for reddit to grow.
The situation is different now, than back then with the starting of Reddit. This time you have a 800 pound gorilla dancing in your living room.
I do believe that more and more people will be interested in the fediverse once they realize that corporate oversight is non existent here.
Unfortunately the Fediverse account creation difficulty barrier of entry may be higher than avoiding corporate oversight. People take the path of least resistance usually. (And yes, it bums me out big time saying that, as we should all try to avoid corporate oversight.)
And that can only happen if we keep the major instances disconnected from Meta or any for profit company.
That’s not the only way though. Good moderation will also prevent that from happening.
–
So, I don’t have a dog in this hunt. Personally I would lean more towards not defederating, to be inclusive, as I’m just an 70s/80s liberal who believes free speech for all, and that it would do more harm than good by excluding a whole bunch of people from conversing with a whole other bunch of people.
Having said that, I do see good points being made on both sides, it’s not a clean decision to make, it’s not binary, it’s analog.
But it does seem to me like a lot of the comments being made on the subject are knee-jerk advocacy based, gatekeepingy.
Nope, I’m fine with small companies trying to make the fediverse better. Meta is full on enshitification, why wouldn’t they bring a new form that we can’t predict over here?
It’s always odd when people stretch inclusivity to mean that absolutely everyone should be able to freely breeze past any and all possible barriers, with no effort.
Internet security, you guys. There has to be SOME minimum activity requirement, or this whole site would be swamped with an insane number of bots. There are multiple written tutorials and video tutorials that tell you exactly what to click and when, in order to sign up. How much easier does it need to be to join? What can you do beyond a video walkthrough for account creation? How the hell did they join reddit? I just don’t get it.
Sometimes these topics kind of remind me of people like the parents who argue that babies and toddlers belong at raves and busy nightclubs. Sometimes having multiple different groups are ok. You don’t usually see videos about how to fix your car on the cooking channel. You also don’t usually get proper accounting advice from random insect documentaries.
It’s always odd when people stretch inclusivity to mean that absolutely everyone should be able to freely breeze past any and all possible barriers, with no effort.
Internet security, you guys. There has to be SOME minimum activity requirement, or this whole site would be swamped with an insane number of bots.
Nice strawman you got there. We’re talking about access to comments made by human beings.
In all forms of communication and commenting, moderation should happen to remove bots as much as possible.
How much easier does it need to be to join?
Apparently people are used to a single server source, and a federation of multiple servers seems to be a blocking point for them. /shrug
What do you suggest then? I’m listening. There has to be some in-between that you must see.
You’re making it out as if there’s an easy solution that makes everyone happy.
Meta is full on enshitification, why wouldn’t they bring a new form that we can’t predict over here?
The people who would be making comments are not the same people that are running Meta.
What does Meta get out of this?
Meta is full on enshitification, why wouldn’t they bring a new form that we can’t predict over here?
The people who would be making comments are not the same people that are running Meta.
What does Meta get out of this?
Would I be talking to the c-suite, or to regular people?
Edit: I get it, truly. You want to punish the corporation for bad behavior, and I definately agree with that sentiment; voting with your wallet.
But we are talking about excluding people from conversations, and not hurting the c-suite. Defederation hurts everybody else more than the c-suite. The 800 lb gorilla is already dancing in your living room.
No really, what do they get out of it?
Fuck anything and everything about Meta. Don’t let them near this.
There sure are a lot of accounts here NOT from .world throwing in their opinions
This is !fediverse@lemmy.world not !support@lemmy.world
It’s a thread specifically about .world
Id love for an official members only lemmy.world poll
All dozens of us responding to it would vote yes to defed
everyone’s opinion is valid, especially mine
Some instances have a vote and point discussion here.
If meta wants to data farm lemmy, what’s to stop them from hosting a 1 user instance, being federated with lemmy, and…? Profit?
I’m not worried about information going that way, it’s an open source deal, information is already going that way.
As for getting more content from another instance? I’m not against it, as long as it’s regulated, and at risk of defederation if it gets out of hand
So my understanding is that the way Federation works in the activity pub standard is that information is not cached on a server unless it interacts with another piece of content. It’s basically a web of users, and one user cannot reach far on that web. That would mean the easiest way to collect mass amounts of data is to sicc their users over here by the millions.
Although if my understanding is incorrect, I would be happy for someone to educate me.
No, they don’t even need an instance, all of the data is public and freely accessible.
I will be leaving if lemmy.world defederates with threads.
Just give users the ability to block instances themselves so we can be done with this.
Stop letting other people make decisions for you.
Question: did you read the article linked? If the answer is yes and the comment still reflects your opinion, please leave
Edit: thought i was under a different post 🙄
Where is the linked article? The only link I’m seeing in the post is to the homepage. Not sure if my mobile client is not showing me something.
I read the users can blacklist instances already, from the latest Lemmy release note.
I’ve heard this, but haven’t seen it explained how to do it.
And you’re free to do so, that’s the entire point of a decentralised system.
They aren’t making decision for anyone but themselves, again, as is the point.
If you don’t agree with whatever they do, find an instance you do agree with or start your own.
Staying or leaving has the same amount of personal agency.
I am still new at this. If I block threads, and lemmy.world doesn’t defederate, will threads users still see my posts and comments in the communities I participate in? Is the relationship recpricol?
If not… What incentive is there to give my (admittedly mediocre) content to a mega corp whose goal is to take over this space?
I’m genuinely asking.
Good question. I’m not sure. I still don’t even know how users can block entire instances, just communities within those instances.
blocking instances for users was added in 0.19. it works like community block: you don’t see any posts from an instance, but you can see the activity of users from that instance on any other instances where they do stuff.
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/pull/3869
[this is not an endorsement of federating with any meta product. i believe in deplatforming hostile actors, which they’ve well and truly proven themselves to be.]
I appreciate the info, however, it doesn’t really answer my question. If I instance block I don’t see them, but they get to see all of the posts/comments I generate in threads?
This is all really interesting. Kind of reminds me of The City and the City.
“Stop letting other people make decisions for you”
“If you do X I am leaving”
Maybe you should stop letting people make decisions for you.
Be bold, be brave, and just go ahead and leave now.
Crazy how many people like you reply to me as if they have a point.
Oh well, at least it makes ignoring easier. Goodbye.
Just go join threads. I’m sure its full of people just like you. You’ll feel right at home with other people who feel the need to loudly announce departures and pretending to put people on ignore.
You are either blissfully ignorant of how corporations work, or you are a corporate shill.
Proof the system works right here.
Imagine blocking hexbear and allowing Facebook.
Fuck lemmy world
Imagine going out of your instance to a community on one you hate just to post hate about it. What happened to blocking and moving on
Still dont know how federation works eh?
I do, but what I don’t understand is subscribing to a community on an instance you hate. Or did you not realize that this is a Lemmy world community?
What difference does it make?
It’s like driving to a city just to get out of your car and shout why you hate that city, then leave. It’s just like… why not go somewhere else then and move on with your life?
Imagine thinking a few hundred people you disagree with is worse than a mega-corp manipulating information for profits.
hexbear needed to be blocked
Why
More importantly–why not?
…?
Spamming, threats, and bad behavior all around.
Citation needed
