“Israel has a right to self-defence, but it has to be done within international law … cutting water, cutting electricity, cutting food to a mass of civilian people is against international law,” said EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell on Tuesday (10 October).
He repeated the view more than once in his press briefing. “The Palestinian people are also suffering,” he added.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. This cycle of violence and repression needs to stop.
It’s not an eye for an eye though. Israeli atrocities over the decades dwarf what has been inflicted upon them by Palestine and Hamas.
You go far back in history enough and we can be here all day over who is guiltier
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By this logic, history doesn’t exist and nothing that happened yesterday should matter today.
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Holy hand-waving-atrocities Batman
pow
ZING
boof
It’s not an eye-for-an-eye because we shouldn’t consider targetting civilians an option. If you want to call militias that target civilians terrorists, be consistent regardless of what uniform they are wearing.
This is the only take that actually matters. If Ukraine responded to Russia by bombing villages and shooting civilians, they would not have such near-worldwide support. If Israel wants to truly be better than “savages” then they need to act like it.
So it an eye for an eye from Palestinian side and should be stopped!
Would be better to discuss this in terms grounded in reality rather than papering over idioms with clever gotchas.
That’s the point. The game is to be the last man standing with at least partial vision.
It is a pretty clown face move to attach those that supply your water, electricity and fuel.
Hamas can surrender and they’ll get water immediately. I don’t see why Israel has to give them anything while their soldiers get killed during the takeover
Have they considered not trying to take over land that isn’t theirs?
The children living in Gaza don’t have that option. Hopefully evacuation corridors are operational.
Few people are worried about hamas. The concern is for the women and children. The people with no say in any of this. It’s not a crime to refuse to resupply an enemy, it is a crime to starve innocent people.
Unfortunately the only right way to go about this is to completely decimate Hamas and force an unconditional surrender then occupy and reprogram Palestinians in the hope that eventually 60 years from now they are able to govern themselves as allies.
Actually the only hope of truly lasting peace is the dissolution of Israel and the creation of a new state that doesn’t limit citizenship and suffrage along ethnic or religious lines.
This. Israel never should have been there in the first place. It’s stolen land, ruled by a tyrannical apartheid regime.
I doubt that would work. If history is to be of any indication then Palestinians also have no desire to co-exist with Israel. If the sides were reversed Palestine would be doing the exact same things as Israel is doing. Arabs want Israel gone and it’s been clear since the state of Israel was officially founded in 1948.
Them kick em both out, bomb Jerusalem, move on.
Just take all the Israelis out of that region and give them Ohio.
Noone wins a war of occupation. You either learn to live with conquered peoples and give them access tibequal rights (Roman empire) or completely erase the local population (Europeans in North America).
Same rhetoric as German occupiers claiming that they would not execute civilian hostages as long as Resistance fighters would give themselves up. Sorry for the Goldwyn point but you made it a low hanging fruit.
You are talking about an area of the world that is nearly 50% children.
Eye for an eye is a misunderstood quote.
It actually means tolerance.
It means you can only take what was taken from you.
The Middle East has always had an issue with being barbaric. It was intent to mellow it out.
Get this racist bullshit outta here, the middle east is literally one of the cradles of civilization and throughout its history has been a place of tolerance and learning, the barbarity overwhelmingly comes from the outside
You’re also using an example of one of the earliest law codes we know to show barbarity, fucking unreal
Good luck stopping a millennia old feud
Damn, 1948 was a thousand years ago? Time is weird, I guess.
If you want to just count recent history, jews started buying land and returning to Palestine in the late 1800s. They started flooding in after some anti-semitic pogroms in the early 20th century and things have been spicy since.
Do you think the region of Palestine and Arabs/Jews were created in 1948?
This isn’t a conflict that was going on in the Ottoman period. This is a recent conflict and this attempt to turn it into a thousands year old religious war is bullshit. This is a colonial project where the goal is to take land. Very material in nature. That project has been in place since 1948.
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Quite the opposite. I feel the same as you, both sides should be allowed to stay. What’s done is done and ethnically cleansing the area is obviously a horrific crime that oughtn’t be advocated for in either direction. Where we differ is that I see the two state solution as setting the region up for the same conflict down the road. After decades of settlement the areas which would make up the Palestinian state would be non-contiguous swiss cheese. It would be an untenable situation.
Instead, a singular, secular, egalitarian state with universal suffrage and human rights guaranteed for all would be a challenging path, but I think ultimately a more stable one. And a path which would leave room for healing in the future.
Bulshit. The diaspora started in 63BC, under Roman rule. Everybody could live peacefully side by side in one country, save for the religious nutheads pushing their hatred rhetoric
Are you really saying that Holocaust happened because of the Palestinians.
Jews and Muslims were literally brother before all this western bullshit, so come on.
Unbelievable 🙁
You might want to double check who kicked out the Jews and started the diaspora.
The region of Israel was created in 1948 by stealing Palestinian land to give to white European Jews. It’s not a religious conflict, it’s European colonialism
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That’s just a different coat of paint. It’s still the same settler colony it always was.
Not a millenia old feud. A one-centure-GB-US-Iran engeneered old feud.
Heard a lot of shit Iran’s supposed to be involved with in the region, but it’s the first time I hear them being accused of having engineered the Israel -Palestine conflict. How do you figure that? I would’ve understood accusing France for their involvement in sykes-picot, or even the Turks since the Ottomans administered the region in early 20th century. But Iran started supporting the Palestinians after the 1979 revolution, before that the Shah very much supported Israel. So I have a hard time seeing how they could be blamed for engineering the conflict.
Haven’t read a history book I take it, if you think the fight over Palestine is a new thing. I guess you’ve also never heard of the Crusades
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You are aware that the region known as Palestine and the Arab people existed before 1948 right?
What side were the Jews on in the crusades?
The UN and EU consider lots of things Israel does illegal. We just don’t do anything about it and they don’t care.
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The problem I have with the “both sides” argument is while I agree we should not approve of Hamas’ actions, Israel routinely murders civilians without consequence. We tut and tsk but we still send them basically unlimited aid and approval.
Yes both sides behave badly but one side does so with our explicit support.
Don’t forget how Israel sells world-class spyware to despots and dictators, who use it to terrorise journalists and political opponents.
There’s a bit of a moral difference though. When you say ‘routinely murders civilians’, in a lot of cases we’re talking about protestors throwing rocks or molotovs at police or soldiers. Or when Hamas is firing missiles from a schoolyard or the roof of a hospital. Where do you draw the line where police/army/country has the right to defend themselves? Of course it creates a tense situation and Israel is going to close ranks around those who are far too trigger happy.
But there’s still a huge difference with Hamas’ stated and demonstrated goal to kill off all jews. Israel is trying to bully the muslims so that they would emigrate, but they’re not killing civilians to wipe them out (if that were the case they would be failing).
As a comparison Israel is acting more like Morocco colonising the Western Sahara and Hamas is acting like Europeans genociding the Native Americans
IDF soldiers have murdered plenty of children. It is routine and I don’t care if they are protesting, they are entitled to protest oppression.
Hamas are disgusting and Israel are cunts but Hamas is because of what Israel does.
Well if you casually leave out that part it becomes a lie by omission. And there’s a reason you have to use this lie both to yourself and to others. It has a whole different ring to it when you say “IDF regularly shoot teenagers throwing molotov cocktails in protest” instead of “routinely murdering children”.
Mohammed Tamimi is the youngest Palestinian killed in the conflict this year (June 2023)
Shot in the head by Israeli forces.
He was 2.
Siblings Ali and Mayar ed-Din, who were killed in an IDF airstrike on May 9, 2023
Damn teenagers get younger with every cull.
Israel made those men kill hundreds of people at a concert. They had no other choice. Brave protestors. Do you even listen to yourself?
Yeah they absolutely did, by teaching the people that shit was normal by doing it to them for generations. Murdering civilians who are celebrating is just how they say hi, so they shouldn’t be surprised pikachu face when they do it right back to them.
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The US sends aid to palestine as well, just nowhere near as much as we do to israel.
And there isn’t a good solution. No matter what, everybody will be mad. Mad and not violent would be nice, though.
Development aid, not weapons as the west supplies to Israel. But otherwise you’re right. The whole region should be disarmed.
The only way to disarm “the whole region” would be to basically level all of it and make it totally uninhabitable.
That thought also crossed my mind.
Has anyone ever heard of BDS?!?
I’m not saying it’s the right move
But it would solve a whole lot of issues.
Thing also is that those people were also hated during thier time and also called terrorists. There’s no good options for a leader sadly.
But Hamas does very textbook terrorist things, seems to me like they are actually terrorists.
As opposed to the IDF that’s been terrorizing Palestinians constantly?
It’s terrorists in both sides. Unfortunately civilians are the ones caught in the crossfire.
As opposed to the resistants (including many Jews) during WW2 who were literally called terrorists by Nazis ?
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Unofficial support does not matter as much as official position recognised internationally. USA also supported Nazi Germany until USSR marched in and whooped Hitler’s twink ass.
USA also supported Nazi Germany until USSR marched in and whooped Hitler’s twink ass.
Lol fucking what? The USSR militarily supported the Nazis until they were attacked
The West called Mandela a terrorist until he won and they killed MLK
So
The West being one single hive mind like the bugs in Starship Troopers
Oh sure, there is some factions within the West, but on the whole they agree on the big stuff. It’s why they’re all allied with eachother in the first place. It’s not a hive mind, it’s a team.
The UN condemns Israel as a pastime activity. Nobody in Israel cares what they say at this point.
Because they are the West’s military outpost in the Middle East A
I guess sanctions only make sense when Israel is out of the picture.
Obviously illegal. Collective punishment is a war crime and makes Israel a monster. Imagine if there was a murderer in your building and the feds blew the entire building up.
Israel is willingly lead by a monster.
“The only democracy in the Middle East”
Didn’t you just describe Putin’s warm up run in the late ninties?
As is punishing all Russian passport holders for the action of the government. So it’s either both EU and Israel are monsters or neither is.
Not being able to spend summer in the Algarve and being brutally murdered is totally the same thing.
“Collective punishment is a war crime”. Except for Palestinians and Russians, of course. And anybody we disagree with. Fuck those civilians.
We are hypocrites. We have double standards.
I am just pointing it out.
Starving people to death via a siege and not allowing passport holders to visit are worlds apart.
Aside from that, it would be a violation of sovereignty to say which countries other countries had to allow in. Countries can and do block passports all the time.
You missed the point :
Russia invades and terrorises the Ukrainian civilians. We punish Russian civilians aka collective punishment.
Hamas invades Israel and terrorises Israeli civilians. Israel punishes Gaza civilians aka collective punishment.
In the first case we are OK. In the second case we scream at Israel (the OP post) “Collective punishment is war crime!!”
We. Are. Hypocrites.
Please, by all means, inform the class what “collective punishments” Russian Citizens are currently facing that are directly equivalent to what Israel is doing.
You won’t because you’re a 🤡 and you know it.
You’re missing the forest for the trees.
I feel like if I continue to argue with you we’ll end up debating what the meaning of every word.
Blocking people’s access to all food, electricity, and water is entirely different than a country banning travel from another country.
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Collective punishment IS a war crime. Travel is a privelege, not being able to go on holiday to specific places isn’t punishment. Do you realise most countries aren’t permitted to travel somewhere?
It’s not about traveling, and not about Russians at all. I just gave an example. Look,
Ursula von der Leyen was against Russians destroying the energy infrastructure of Ukraine.
The same Ursula supports energy blockade of Gaza by Israel.
It’s just pure hypocracy.
In both cases the civilian population suffers the most. In both cases it’s a war crime and should be condemned.
You’re on about something completely different now.
There’s a bit of false equivalency here methinks
“Collective punishment is a war crime”. Except for Palestinians and Russians, of course. And anybody we disagree with. Fuck those civilians.
We are hypocrites. We have double standards.
I am just pointing it out.
Can we agree that “not letting people with Russian passport travel in NATO countries”
And “Slaughtering civilians en masse in retaliation to a terrorist attack”
Are just a wee bit different as far “collective punishment” goes?
You missed the point :
Russia invades and terrorises the Ukrainian civilians. We punish Russian civilians aka collective punishment.
Hamas invades Israel and terrorises Israeli civilians. Israel punishes Gaza civilians aka collective punishment.
In the first case we are OK. In the second case we scream at Israel (the OP post) “Collective punishment is war crime!!”
We. Are. Hypocrites.
……you’re comparing passports to murdering civilians.
Something tells me you still are not getting the point about collective punishment. But hey, you won’t be the first person who can’t see the hypocrisy in all of us.
Launching missiles across borders is different than securing your own borders. You can’t possibly really be trying to equate the two?
“Collective punishment is a war crime”. Except for Palestinians and Russians, of course. And anybody we disagree with. Fuck those civilians.
We are hypocrites. We have double standards.
I am just pointing it out.
Hmmm let’s stay on topic. I didn’t say I support collective punishment of Palestine or anyone. I said missiles aren’t the same thing as border restrictions, because they clearly aren’t. Do you actually disagree?
As a punished Russian living in Lomonosov, let me explain you what has changed for us since this “punishment” started:
Absolutely nothing.
(Oh, yes, Coke bottles are now green, instead of red.)
This is not valid in all cases as I know multiple Russians and those living in EU continue to do so with no issue and those living in RU say it doesn’t affect them. You can even find interview with random RU citizens in RU and they all say it doesn’t affect them or that they want to attack UA BC Nato boarder is too close.
You missed the point :
Russia invades and terrorises the Ukrainian civilians. We punish Russian civilians aka collective punishment.
Hamas invades Israel and terrorises Israeli civilians. Israel punishes Gaza civilians aka collective punishment.
In the first case we are OK. In the second case we scream at Israel (the OP post) “Collective punishment is war crime!!”
We. Are. Hypocrites.
And you dont grasp how comparisons work.
No wonder the world is fucked
Ursula von der Leyen was against Russians destroying the energy infrastructure of Ukraine.
The same Ursula supports energy blockade of Gaza by Israel.
If you don’t see a hypocrisy from our leaders of the west, you brainwashed.
Supporting Israel in this is hypocritical, yes. In the scenarios you present, Israel and Russia are both the antagonists
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I don’t think I missed the point though.
I’m ststating that Russians don’t seem to be directly afected aside from having their favorite EU vacation destinations accessible via France or Turkey instead directly from Moscow. It means that so called collective punishment was either ineffective or so mild, that it had almost no effect on dayly lives of citizens.
You compare this with bombing city, being cut out of water, food, medicine and energy.
If anything, Russians collectively punished Ukrainians by shelling,detroying their energy and tradic infrastructure to make winter as bad as possible for UA.
Oh I love allegories. Let me try.
Imagine there was a murderer in your building. But he is not really interested in murdering you, he keeps shooting at some other people you also hate. The feds have tried to go into the building to extract the murderer, but his friends and you lynched the feds when they tried. The murderer has stockpiled his guns in the building and the feds figure that if they can’t get to the murderer at least they can destroy his guns and vantage point from which he is firing at people. They don’t really want to destroy the building but the murderer is actively trying to kill people and the people he is trying to kill demands action.
You receive a text message that the building you are in will be destroyed shortly. You want to leave, but now the murderer says he will kill you if you do.
It is a very silly thing to think that having a “civilian” stay in a legitimate military target ( rocket launcher and or rocket storage ) makes it a place that is untouchable!
And then you left and srill the rocket kills you even when you ate not in the building anymore
Are you telling me there are people being told their building will be blown up who leave the building to go stand just a few meters away on the street it sits on?
There wan an incident where people were told to evacuate and then the evacuation site was bombed, yes
How far away from the building did they evacuate?
Not excatly like that. They were told to evacuate to a particular place were they will be secure because supposedly Isael wouldn’t strike… and then, they strike that place anyway.
Yeah okay that’s fucked, that undermines IDF claims completely.
There is no helping the clowns in this forum. They’re lost and don’t understand the costs of living in a terrorist society. There has been billions spend on providing aid, proving avenues, providing resources to the gaza strip.
“the cost of living in a terrorist society”
If Hamas orders civilians to stay in buildings that will be bombed, those lives are taken by Hamas, not Israel.
100% agreed
The EU may support Israel, but right now they’re calling them out for this bullshit and I’m applauding them for that. Hurting innocent civilians is never a good idea no matter which side of the conflict does it.
It angers me how many people are now permanently displaced. From what I’ve seen, the numbers are going to be extremely high. How do you rehouse an entire city? Families are going to suffer many hardships because of this. I can’t think of a better way to recruit a new generation for an age old cause.
A splinter in my mind has been spawned because of this.
I just noticed that the replies have turned into a crap ton of arguing.
I’m surprised they haven’t used phosphorus on Gaza yet.
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Took longer than I thought it would.
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I saw videos of wf being used on gazan civvies. scumbag israelis
So was the blockade. and they did nothing about it . bunch of spineless hypocrites
Hasn’t this always been the case?
Israel has not been a shining example of virtue over the years. I’m not excusing the disgusting actions by the other side, where they are proved true, as some of the pictures have already been discounted, but this would only make Israel come down harder.
I don’t the have an answer, but what ever us happening now is certainly not it.
So you just want them to sit back and take their genocide laying down? Of course you do, because you don’t really support the Palestine struggle, you’re just clutching at pearls because the thought of the oppressed rising up scares you.
I think you are confused, Israel are the ones who are planning on carrying out genocide.
So you just want them to sit back and take their genocide laying down?
“Them” refers to the palestinians.
What the poster is arguing is that Israel incited the attack by years and years of oppression and forced displacement.
I don’t fully agree with that sentiment. I don’t condone the attack and blaming that on Israel alone is delusional, but I certainly will not “stand for Israel”. Genocide is not an appropriate response and the flimsy excuse of citing the recent attack as the trigger for moving forward with their long-standing plan of ethnic cleansing is despicable.
I’m not confused, that other guy was being bad faith. I even made it clear in my comment who was doing the genocide.
Not what I said at all.
Nobody wins here. Parading mutilated corpses and taking hostages is not ‘supporting the struggle’ though.
I agree that civilian death is always bad but the Palestinians have tried every course they can and they’re still being choked to death, at some point violence is self defense
I totally agree, I’m not cutting Israel any slack here - their treatment of Palestine has been awful - and if they weren’t so chummy with USA it’d be a different story. But parading mutilated corpses in the streets etc? There’s no excuse. Whatever side you’re on.
Wait! I know what Borrell will do: expel Israel from Eurovision! That will serve them right and start behaving!
I don’t expect much more from anything leaded by Borrell. We know him well in Spain.
Also EU
I’m going to be real, I doubt they can even muster the will to write a strongly worded letter with the kinds of members who make up the EU.
Stand up to Zionists!
“Do unto others as others have done unto you.”. – Israel
That was not the best takeaway, but here we are.
Palestine cut off Israel’s water and electricity?
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Much like that UN report classifying Israel’s action against Palestinians as Apartheid (which is criminal in international law), much will be said and very little will be done about this. The state of Israel has been going against international law and agreements for almost its entire existence: see its support for illegal colonies and the walling and ghettoization of the West Bank and Gaza. Israel’s government has confidence that the US and NATO won’t do anything to stop their criminal actions against Palestinians because that is what they’ve been doing for the last half century. They will continue to coddle Israel until it fulfills its goal of completely exterminating or expelling Palestinians from the land between the river and the sea, forging a state with a single ethnicity, culture and religion out of Palestine.
PS: just before anyone claims it: no, I do not support gratuitous acts of terrorism by Hamas, just as I don’t support Israel’s terrorism against Palestinians. All I’m trying to do is point out the historical context of the current conflict, so that nothing is distorted.
Why are they not sending wepons to Palestinians?
What?
EU send incredible amount of weapons to Ukraine, citing repelling invasion. So even if we generously forget how most of their members were participating in invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, surely they can send at least some weapons to Palestine?
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settlers aren’t innocent
Oh, but they did. Oopsy (2014)
The invasion of Iraq, bad as it was, never had the aim of annexing the country and destroy their culture language and identity. Never stole children. Etc.
never had the aim of annexing the country and destroy their culture language and identity. Never stole children. Etc.
That is a really stupid goalpost to stand by. The semantics you’ve drawn really do spell out “I only care about the invasion of Ukraine. Iraq and Gaza aren’t that bad.”
If you want to think that, you can.
Because Israel destroying HAMAS or Palestine doesn’t threaten EU. Yet.
Because the very same article shows the EU most certainly doesn’t like Hamas.
His condemnation of Israel’s behaviour came after three days of EU rhetoric that had focused on the “utterly inhuman … shocking … barbarous” nature of Hamas’ atrocities, while highlighting Israel’s rights rather than its obligations.
He pledged his staff would conduct a swift review of EU aid to Palestine to make sure no money ended up with Hamas via error or deception.
Stopping aid to ordinary Palestinians would be “the best present we could give to Hamas and it would jeopardise our interests and partnerships in the Arab world,” he added.
“We want to make sure that, beyond UNRWA, the EU budget does not get to any organisations which has any ties, any links to Hamas,” he said.
EU sending weapons is not a matter of who is defending or attacking, only a matter of who they like
Of course, i was (rhetorically) asking our resident EU shills which claims EU is follwing some kind of beningn international policy.
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Like clockwork, libs parroting the most blatant propaganda.
Blocking neccesities for civiliana like water is a war crime. Encircling enemy state after it lanched offensive to yours is not, otherwise e.g. allies pushing Nazis all the way back to Berlin was also crime.
Israel claims that Hamas is not a legitimate government and definitely not a state. They claim and control the territory of Gaza and consider Hamas a terrorist organization.
So by their own definition, this is a
war crimecrime against humanity.Kinda like the extermination of a people including taking hostages, torturing hostages, raping hostages, and executing hostages?
Two wrongs dont make a right, but Israel is by no means worse than HAMAS.
Going by the numbers would suggest Israel is 20 times worse than Hamas. But, that was before they started one of the largest scale war crimes in recent history*… I would argue that Israel is, from what seems to me a rather objective point of view, to be much worse
*I’m referring to the war crime on 2.2 million civilians who are being cut off from water, electricity and food, who can do nothing about it, because of, you guessed it, Israel.
Numbers are not the most important moral decider in war. By your logic, the US or Canada would have been the worst major player in WW2. Intent matters and moral values matter.
Nah. My logic is sound, don’t attribute flaws in it based on your inability to understand my point. Let me break it down for you:
Numbers are not the most important moral decider in war
I have not made this claim. I have suggested that numbers can help gain better understanding of a situation, especially when the numbers suggest incorrect portrayal of a situation, one which is extremely prevalent in US media.
Canada … in WW2, as topping the leaderboard as responsible for civilian casualties? Canada is your second place there? I mean, why the fuck do I bother discussing this with people online. And… the US on first place? Sure, the US nuked 2-300 000 people… Man… the dumb arguments I see. Aside from ethnic cleansing, it is one of the worst war crimes committed, but even so, it’s a % of the civilian casualties in USSR, China and Nazi Germany. But, I’m sure that’s part of the copium right. “The animals beheaded 40 babies” => “Let’s do some ethnic cleansing, because intent matters, not numbers!”. (PS: Numbers of beheaded babies: 0, “but I’m sure they intended to!”)
Why are you comparing the two? You’re insulting Israel by comparing them to a terrorist organization.
The Israeli Government should be better than criminals, just as the US should be better than the Taliban. But they actually kill more. Like it or not, Palestinians are citizens of Israel and living on their territory. If Israel kills them indiscriminately, they are committing a crime against humanity.
Palestinians are citizens of Israel
Never were.
They are defacto subjects of Israel, since the State of Palestine has been under Israeli military occupation since 1967. If you don’t call them full “citizens” it implies they are second class citizens in a apartheid-like state.
Do you want to do that?
