I absolutely hate “smart” TVs! You can’t even buy a quality “dumb” panel anymore. I can’t convince the rest of my family and friends that the only things those smarts bring are built-in obsolescence, ads, and privacy issues.
I make it a point to NEVER connect my new 2022 LG C2 to the Internet, as any possible improvements from firmware updates will be overshadowed by garbage like ads in the UI, removal of existing features (warning: reddit link), privacy violations, possible attack vectors, non-existent security, and constant data breaches of the manufacturers that threaten to expose every bit of personal data that they suck up. Not to mention increased sluggishness after tons of unwanted “improvements” are stuffed into it over the years, as the chipset ages and can no longer cope.
I’d much rather spend a tenth of the price of my TV on a streaming box (Roku, Shield TV, etc.) and replace those after similar things happen to them in a few years. For example, the display of my OG 32-inch Sony Google TV from 2010 ($500) still works fine, but the OS has long been abandoned by both Sony and Google, and since 2015-16 even the basic things like YouTube and Chrome apps don’t work anymore. Thank goodness I can set the HDMI port as default start-up, so I don’t ever need to see the TV’s native UI, and a new Roku Streaming Stick ($45) does just fine on this 720p panel. Plus, I’m not locked into the Roku ecosystem. If they begin (continue?) enshitifying their products, there are tons of other options available at similar price.
Most people don’t replace their TVs every couple of years. Hell, my decade old 60-inch Sharp Aquos 1080p LCD TV that I bought for $2200 back in 2011 still works fine, and I only had to replace the streamer that’s been driving it twice during all this time. Sony Google TV Box -> Nvidia Shield TV 2015 -> Nvidia Shield TV 2019. I plan to keep it in my basement until it dies completely before replacing it. The Shield TV goes to the LG C2 so that I never have to see LG’s craptastic UI.
Sorry, just felt the need to vent. Would be very interested in reading community’s opinions on this topic.
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You actually can buy quality dumb TVs, but you have to do the legwork and do research on what are often referred to as “commercial displays.” I see them everywhere in businesses for ads and showing the menu. They’re sometimes a little pricier, but they’re usually built a little “beefier” too, as they’re expected to deal with more rough usage in like a restaurant context.
However, the other solution is the one you’ve already mentioned where you never plug the Smart TV into the internet, and instead bypass the “smart” on the TV with your own streaming boxes.
I think as more people realize there is a market for dumb TVs, you’ll start to see that market grow more and more until they no longer just “commercial displays.” Just gotta get enough people buying them and not buying Smart TVs.
I feel like the market is only going to grow in the top end. Audio/videophiles sort of areas with large, high quality, top end feature sets.
The low end tends to be partly subsidized by the “smart” features. Think TVs that show ads in the menu, or Amazon or Google screens that want you to use their services because it’s “easy” and they’re “right there” so maybe people will subscribe. Couple that with the “feature” that it’s already built in so it saves you an extra box/purchase for people who want cheap TVs, and I don’t see it going away anytime soon.
Exactly this.
Manufacturers are NOT INTERESTED in selling low-cost dumb TVs when they can sell smart TVs and get long-term returns. They are even willing to sell the TVs at cost because they will monetise later with ads and selling your data.
Manufacturers don’t want you to have a dumb TV, they want everyone to go smart - which is part of why business-targetted dumb panels are priced higher - to disincentivise regular end-customers from buying.
There’s no down-side to selling a smart TV to someone who doesn’t want one/doesn’t use the features.
The features we “want” from modern TV’s like DolbyVision and all the shit they do the image to make it stand out in the store requires a significant amount of processing power.
It’s simply better business to sell smart TV’s to everyone than to make dumb TV’s that compete for a tiny fraction of the market when people buy Smart TV’s in every price segment.
They aren’t very good though. They are durable, but usually expensive and missing a lot of features you might actually want for that price tag. For example, I’ve yet to find any OLED “commercial displays” that support Dolby Vision, VRR, and eARC.
It’s way cheaper and easier to just buy the TV you want and not connect it to your wifi.
The other option is to buy the smart TV, turn off the networking, and hook it up to a Shield, Apple TV, or Roku. All those box makers are going to support the devices longer than TV manufacturers, and the streaming apps can’t ignore them.
Last time I looked for commercial dumb TV, a SHARP was like $4000 for a 65" 1080p or something :-/
$910 for a 65" 4k Samsung display.
https://www.samsung.com/us/business/displays/4k-uhd/qe-series/qe65t-series-65-lh65qetelgcxgo/
Not bad, I’m in Canada I’m wondering if i could find it, but I’d like the 75" one, at about 2k US, I guess a Sony from Costco would have better pictures
This is good to know, thank you for the info. I am getting worried about my increasingly old TV (15+ years) and I do not want a smart TV to replace it.
Is it just me or is it really fuckin’ easy to not connect your TV to the internet?
I’ve hated “Smart TVs” for a decade now, but I solved my problem by just buying a set top streaming box (Apple TV, Nvidia Shield, etc) and leaving my TV off my WiFi.
Some smart tvs’s will whine incessantly about not having the internet.
Thankfully mine (Philips) only bitched about it for about a week, and gave up. Now the only real complaint I have with it is that it takes forever to boot, considering it has to fire up android after it’s been off.
LG doesn’t do this. They also have the good sense to allow firmware updates via USB. Which is great, because turning on WiFi long enough to install an update fills the home screen with junk.
Is it just me or is it really fuckin’ easy to not connect your TV to the internet?
I prefer not to reward corporations by buying equipment with built-in spyware.
(Also, “easy to not connect” depends on whether the TV nags you, or disables features, or uses any open wi-fi it finds, or includes a cellular or mesh modem.)
You’re just giving the same companies even more money when you buy their much more expensive “dumb” digital signage products.
Nobody’s been able to show me a TV that actually does those other things you suggest. If one did, I wouldn’t buy it, but I won’t base my current pruchasing decisions on hypothetical future products.
You’re just giving the same companies even more money when you buy their much more expensive “dumb” digital signage products.
No, I am not.
(And even if I was, it wouldn’t boost the sales numbers of spyware products, encouraging more of the same.)
Nobody’s been able to show me
If you don’t want to believe it’s a problem, I don’t expect anyone wants to waste their time trying to change your mind.
(Jay did report seeing examples in the wild, though.)
No, I am not.
Who do you think makes these digital signage products? They all come from LG, Samsung, Hisense, etc.
If you don’t want to believe it’s a problem, I don’t expect anyone wants to waste their time trying to change your mind.
Show me a TV that ships with a cellular modem or that connects to open wifi networks without being prompted, and I won’t buy it. I’m not the one with the burden of proof here. It’s very easy to see if a TV does any of this shit before you buy it just by checking reputable review sites like rtings. So telling people any TV they buy at Costco does this is just spreading FUD.
So telling people any TV they buy at Costco does this is just spreading FUD.
Nobody has said that.
This honestly and embarrassingly didn’t occur to me.
I got a roku for my smart TV because I wanted something with a Jellyfin app. I don’t trust roku any more or less than Vizio, but I find I like the idea of removing internet access to the TV directly.
Smart devices are basically data sniffers scooping up any info about you and your family, your habits,. They watch network traffic, listen to your conversations, and record video,. I’ll stick to dumb devices thanks.
My smart refridgerator said you’re a lying sack of shit
Oh yeah I put my meat in your fridges mom
I know. Your smart fleshlight posted about it on Facebook
Sony Bravia models now give you an option to make it a dumb TV as part of the out of the box experience. It’s the first question they ask you when you power it on.
I got a display signage TV. Totally dumb. The only app it has is YouTube and that’s optional. I don’t even have the internet hooked up to it. Works fine for gaming and occasionally streaming via other devices.
Where do you even get something like that?
I got mine through Amazon. Samsung makes the cheapest ones I’ve found. Just search for something like “samsung commercial TV”. They’re generally a little more expensive than your ad/data harvesting-supported TVs but if you value your privacy and longevity of your devices, it’s worth it.
I have solved this by not buying a TV in the last two decades. I just own projectors. Larger screen, cheaper, no “smart” nonsense. Depending on mounting, essentially invisible when not in use and not a large black rectangle in your living room. Do recommend.
How dark do rooms need to be for them to work? Are there issues with shared spaces where someone might want a well lit workspace?
I also want to know this
Having the sun shine through a large window is an issue, but is also an issue for a good picture on normal TVs. Picture quality with protectors is better when the room is darker (increases contrast), but a normally lit room is just fine. It also depends on how and what you’re watching. I generally do darken the room when I’m actively watching a movie, but no need for that when putting something on you’re just half watching. You can still tell just fine what’s going on even in a bright room, it just looks a bit washed out.
It also depends on the brightness/class of the projector of course, and on the screen. Don’t underestimate the visual difference a screen makes. Both having any screen over just projecting onto a white wall, and a great screen over a cheap ransom one.
The core issue is that a projector uses throwing light as bright, and not throwing light as dark. If your surface (screen or wall) is rather white and illuminated without the projector actually projecting light into it, that is as dark as a black part of the picture could possibly be. There are screens that are reflective, but more gray than white, those help with that, too.
I would say a normally lit room (with artificial light in the evening for example) is fine to use a projector. “Well lit workspace” really depends on you’re definition. For my definition of “well lit” it wouldn’t be ideal, but I’ve just installed like 49000 lumens of illumination into my 3.5 x 3.5 meter workshop, cause I like to see what I’m doing and life is too short for bad lighting.
Thanks, that’s a lot to think about. We currently use an oled computer monitor as a TV (hooked up to a pi) and it’s beautiful but there are limits on screen size and it’s crazy expensive (you’re paying for stupid fast refresh rates and the Gamer™ markup)
our house is very bright during the day, lots of glass in sunny Australia, so it’s probably not a great candidate for a projector generally but it does have me thinking about one in the bedroom for late night movies. Probably a lot cheaper and neater than another absurd monitor.
My last projector came with a low power android TV stick. I thought that was pretty cool, even knowing that I’d never use it. That means the smart TV features are there for the people that want them and can literally be thrown in the garbage for those that don’t.
I just never entered my Wifi details into my smart TV. I only use the HDMI inputs on it anyway, so it behaves like a dumb one. It’s a RCA TV from Walmart, if anyone is wondering.
Samsung commercial displays don’t have any smart features, I think.
They don’t come with a stand.
https://www.samsung.com/us/business/displays/4k-uhd/qe-series/qet-series-43-lh43qetelgcxza/
I’d much rather have a VESA mount than a stand. VESA stands are easy to find and cheap, and if you want to wall mount or get a fancier stand that is an option.
The specs on those QET models don’t look great. 300 nits max brightness? That can’t be right. Aren’t they designed to be in brightly lit areas like inside stores?
the smartshitification of TVs is annoying, and i too hate being tracked by every device i use. That said, the incredible value of these TVs can’t be overstated. Most people can’t or won’t spend more than $500 on a TV, so most people would still be using 1080p displays if it wasn’t for this phenomenon, but now EVERYONE gets to have a 4k TV because the price is partially subsidized by all those ads you’re seeing.
I think it’s probably a net negative for society overall, but just wanted to point out that there is an upside to all those ads.
I found this comment funny because I’m still using 1080p TVs in the house. Mostly because after we got them I cut the cord and couldn’t even remotely stay under the Comcast cap with 4k. Even after I moved on to T-Mobile home internet, uncapped for now, I haven’t upgraded because there really hasn’t been a pressing need. Hell, cable and streaming don’t actually deliver 1080p, it usually is 720p max. I have no idea if the 4k options actually broadcast in 4k vs a smaller resolution.
honestly you’re playing it smart. I can’t speak to cable, but you are right that streaming apps don’t exactly justify the bump in resolution. The image they spit out to your screen is 4K, but the compression required to stream in 4K means that most of the added details are just crushed by the format. So ironically, you don’t really benefit from 4K unless you use Blurays, at which point you don’t really need any of the “smart” features of your 4K tv.
The compression issues are true for 1080p too, any dark scene on Netflix gets some horrible color banding and artifacts.
Ironically, the pirates don’t have that issue as their multi-gig torrents don’t have much compression compared to the some-hundred megs stream provided by Netflix
Just wanted to say same. I have used a Linux box as my Media Center and Home Server since 2008. Also have a chomecast dongle so I can steam from Android and Android apps. Not sure what else one needs.
Seems to me what one wants wants really is mostly a browser and ability to stream stuff from apps on your phone. Since the Linux box is a Media Center and Server it also has a lot of features a Smart TV would not have. Just do not see the value of a Smart TV.
I just saw a link to this
https://github.com/MayaPosch/NymphCast
Perhaps your l8nux can cast as well?
I have some practical annoyances, most surrounding multiple remotes and the clunkiness of it. I have two TVs in my house: a Samsung smart TV from 2019 and a Hisense Google TV I purchased earlier this year. The Google interface is not the most responsive, but it packs in all of the stuff I would want. Android is the most supported platform for apps. Samsung’s OS has good app support, but open source projects and more niche apps aren’t there. I think there is a nebula app now, but for a while there wasn’t, for instance. So, I bought one of the Chromecast with Google TV sticks to bridge the gap. It works well most of the time, but unlike the Hisense, it doesn’t support airplay. So if someone airplays, you get kicked back to the native OS and have to use the native remote. It’s possible to configure the Chromecast to use the native remote, except the home button doesn’t map, it is the home menu for the native OS. So it’s just kinda clunky. I do think newer Google tvs with airplay built in (varies by brand) are going in the right direction here. If you’re concerned about privacy, they’re still gonna be a nightmare though.
multiple remotes
I have a Logitech Harmony Ultimate remote with Hub. It was the best thing ever for me, because in my living room setup I have the TV, A/V receiver, Nvidia Shield TV for streaming, and an Xbox Series X for my kids and occasional BR/DVD movies. With programmable activity buttons, a single tap on the remote turns on the appropriate devices, switches them to the correct inputs, and provides appropriate controls. Tap another activity, and it turns on devices that are required, turns off the ones not in use, and switches controls to the proper device.
Unfortunately Logitech discontinued the Harmony line. It’s only a matter of time before they take down the servers that host device databases and allow you to reprogram the remotes. I’ve been looking into replacements, but there aren’t many that have feature parity with Harmony.
Seems the best way is with IR blasters and learning remotes. There is software for PCs/Macs that will let you capture the IR remote functions, then you can assign that to a “smart/learning” remote to relay those signals. Not nearly as easy as the Logitech setup, and I’m dreading the day the Harmony remotes stop working.
I have an older model of this one: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/insignia-43-class-n10-series-led-full-hd-tv/6530085.p?skuId=6530085
Added a refurb 2.1 sound bar for better sound.
edit - It was not easy find this. As I wasn’t in a hurry at the time I took a while to find an acceptable model. Thinking more about it using eBay’s boolean search options may have helped drill down to good choices.
It’s all about supply and demand, and the customers have demanded smarter TVs. In this way capitalism drives innovation. Who knows, a couple years from now TVs will likely be twice or three times as smart as they are now!
Who knows, a couple years from now TVs will likely be twice or three times as smart as they are now!
Don’t scare me like that!
AI labeled TVs will slowly indoctrinate you into ideologies you would have scoffed at ten years ago. And you won’t even notice it.
Not to mention tracking your every move. “Drink a Pepsi to continue watching.”
I don’t think I’ll ever need anything like a streaming box or whatever. I’m fine with the computer monitor I have right now, which is a bit wider then an early 2000’s CRT. Anything I stream is done through Firefox with NoScript and Origin to block the bullshit. I’m not entirely sure why anyone uses streaming boxes and whatnot when you can just do the same thing, but safer and cheaper on a desktop. Maybe so you can more easily watch stuff with people in the same room? Find a use for that couch? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Many streaming services don’t offer content at the same quality when played from a PC vs something like an Nvidia Shield, and the 4k upscaler on the Shield 2019 is very good. I can understand if these features aren’t things you care about, but if you have a modern 4k OLED and you want to take advantage of 4k HDR Dolby Vision content from various providers, doing that from a PC will prove difficult. Also, my partner is not very tech-savvy and I need to keep the TV usable for them, so running an HTPC is kinda out of the question for me, even if it had feature parity.
I use a very old (circa ~2010), very underpowered (6Gb ram because one slot is dead) optiplex 760 with a DP to HDMI adapter to watch movies and live sports on a projector.
I can watch my pirate streamed movie or sports in one window and do other nerd stuff in another no problem.
Running Linux mint-xfce with Firefox, ublock, and containers.
Internet is acquired by tethering one of my old android phones running dnscrypt-proxy and tor (invisible pro), with KDE connect for remote control.
Agreed. Chromecast and Roku are just as bad as the shit built into the TV. Proprietary boxes of DRM and adware the lot of them. The only thing worth streaming from is a PC or maybe a rooted Android box.
An Amazon Fire Stick is far smaller, much quieter, draws less power and is simpler to use than a general-purpose PC.
Plus, if I’m using a PC I’d probably only use Linux, so I’d have to deal with lower quality streams because DRM… so overall the experience would be worse.
Using a more ‘normie’ Windows box as a streaming box could work, but that doesn’t solve the noise(!) and power draw issues, that feels like a compromise rather than a choice.
I’ve recently bought a Fire Stick and don’t regret it one bit. It’s doesn’t fell janky and doesn’t have ads as far as I can tell. The provided remote inclues an IR emitter than can turn the TV on/off and change volume (why isn’t this provided by HDMI itself is beyond me), and it’s much faster than any smart tv so you can watch content without having to wait
I forget about the DRM bullshit Linux needs to deal with. As GabeN says, paraphrasing “piracy is a service problem.”
Stremio + Torrentio + a debrid service is easier and better than bouncing between different online subscription services.
As a lot of people here, I did the same, bought the smart TV, it needed internet for firmware upgrade, and once it had started and did not ask for my inputs or whatever, I selected the HDMI1 as startup, plugged a Chromecast. Then went into the TV menu to forget the network settings on the TV. It’s just a monitor used to cast Netflix, Disney, Plex, Prime, etc.
How is plugging in a Chromecast any different than using the same software built into a Google TV?
As the owner of original $500 Sony NSX-32GT1 TV from 2010, I can tell you exactly how different it is. Its UI wasn’t exactly a snappy experience to begin with, but it’s gotten even more sluggish over the years until everything stopped working due to being EOL. The OS on it has been unsupported since around 2016, so it’s stuck on ancient Android TV version. Most apps (even built-in ones like YouTube) stopped working a few year later, and cannot be updated.
Sure, a $50 Chromecast will eventually suffer from the same problems, but I can replace it 10 times for the same amount of money while keeping my TV because its 32-inch 720p panel still displays content just fine.
While true, the context of this discussion was mostly about privacy rather than functionality. Builtin Chromcast vs external changes nothing on that front. There is also nothing that would prevent you from plugging in that fancy new external Chromecast to the old Sony and getting new functionality from it if the display is still to your liking.
I don’t know for a Google TV, but others brands have microphone and ads in their builtin …
