They were invented decades ago.
They have fewer moving parts than wheelbois.
They require less maintenance.
There’s obviously some bottleneck in expanding maglev technology, but what is it?
If you introduce a new rail type into your rail network you can’t use your existing fleet of trains on that section reducing the ROI on that train engine or carriage. Also, any train you purchase for the new rail type will only ever work on that system lowering their profitability in the long term.
Also the fact that ‘less moving parts’ doesn’t mean lower complexity or maintenance cost. Train wheels are a very robust and efficienct mechanism and most train designs are not being limited by them.
Very robust because they have 300 years of research, innovation, materials science and manufacturing in them. Making them incredibly stellar, well understood, damn near perfect technology for what they do.
- construction is Hella pricey
- there are few maglev manufacturers, allowing vendor locking and exacerbating the first point
- they must be built grade-separate, which can complicate route planning
- they are incompatible with existing rail tech, which results in having to build new, expensive infrastructure for 100% of your route, further exacerbating the first point
- their switches are slow, limiting capacity
Ultimately, their competition is regular trains, which are simpler, more tolerant to buying from multiple manufacturers, still significantly more efficient and faster than anything roadborne, able to switch over the course of seconds instead of minutes, able to interoperate with different tiers of intensity and speed, able to be built at grade, cheaper and having the better part of two hundred years of technological refinement behind it. Ultimately, maglev has specific, niche advantages that make it a hard sell for any system that already has regular rail.
A lot of these arguments apply to high speed train. In France a completely separate line was build between Paris and Marseille for the TGV To reach its peak speed without being delayed by lines that stop at every station.
The problem is investment and shitty companies holding these technologies IMO.
To compare our bullet points for maglev and high speed & conventional rail:
- there’s a big step in price between “a railway line built to millimetre precision” and “a completely new type of infrastructure that may or may not need superconductors to work”
- there are way more manufacturers for components of high speed rail. For rolling stock there 4 in Europe alone, plus more in Japan, South Korea and China. As for signalling, it depends on the underlying tech. And if we follow the current European tech standard, that encompasses a standard… That is made by multiple manufacturers, and where their systems are operationally compatible.
- for one, high speed rail is still rail, so building at grade & laying them on the ground is trivial compared to maglev systems. While some maglev technologies must be built like a bit of a monorail, which must be built elevated everywhere. And if we step outside of high speed rail, and point to rail in general, the mere existence of level crossings and street running disproves the fact it can only be built grade-separate. Sure, level crossings for HSR are a reason for the planning engineer to get fired, but for rail in general, it can happen.
- this depends on what is already there. Most high speed trains use standard gauge, and those that don’t, use broad gauge, and for that, only the Russian Sapsan comes to mind. If your country has standard gauge track, you can use the existing railway lines into town, disproving your point. And as for signalling, you can fit a train with multiple train protection systems, and many places are instead working towards using high speed signalling for general use, since the tech that makes high speed trains go BRR is the same tech that allows regular trains to run closer together. Finally, electrically, many countries use the same power on the wires on their high speed network as their general network.
- I’ve seen footage of a set of switch points with a diverging speed of 160 km/h, and it needs 9 switch motors to work. Proper high speed switches need even more, last time I checked the adopted standard was diverging speeds of 220 km/h. However, these motors all work in parallel, so the difference in switching time is negligible compared to a more basic type for general use. And these points work by bending one rail a little bit out of the way, bending another rail into place, and for high speed, pushing the frog (image for clarity) to the other side. This all unlike maglev, where you need to invasively rearrange the whole track, the replacement of which is probably several metres away.
High speed rail has enough compatibilities with regular rail to make sense.
To append, some examples of high speed systems with multiple manufacturers.
🇪🇺🇬🇧: Eurostar has, for the Channel Tunnel, two types of train built by two manufacturers. The old type by Alstom, the new type by Siemens.
🇪🇸: Just AVE has three different builders. The S-101 by Alstom, the S-102 by Talgo and the S-103 by Siemens. The S-102 is also used by Avlo, while OuiGo used Euroduplex sets by Alstom, and Iryo uses ETR 1000 sets built by Hitachi Italy.
🇮🇹: The ETR 500 is built by a consortium of manufacturers, several of which have been absorbed by others. The ETR 1000 has been built by a chain of builders due to mergers n stuff. And the NTV units are built by Alstom.
🇯🇵: Pretty much every major manufacturer of rolling stock has built at least some Shinkansen units. You’ll find trains by Hitachi, Mitsubishi, Kawasaki and others all over the network.
🇨🇳: The first generations of CHSR trains were all imported designs, derived from others, both Shinkansen and European types. This allowed them to kickstart a domestic rolling stock industry for later generations of train.
🇨🇭: Once we lower our standards of speed a touch, SBB uses two types, one by Alstom built in Italy, one by Stadler built domestically. And trains from neighbouring networks ride into particular areas, each of which has their own builders.
Maybe the new Japanese maglev Chuo Shinkansen will help - they’ve already had Mitsubishi, Nippon Sharyo (JR) and Hitachi build test trains for them
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Not to defend capitalism in general, but it’s really good at answering these sort of “is it worth the cost?” aquestions. The whole point is to allocate scarce resources efficiently; the problem is that it assumes nobody is a scumbag and all the costs are accounted for.
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You can’t.
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The current, dominant form of capitalism isn’t and doesn’t, though. It maximizes short-term profits and ignores all other medium and long-term costs. The efficient allocation of scarce resources doesn’t happen when inefficient allocation yields greater short-term profit. The stock market ensures that high short-term yields with lower total returns will be favored over the inverse. In particular, it emphasizes competition over cooperation, which is more resource wasteful for the gestalt.
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It isn’t. Most decision makers of capitalism are very unaware of science. You’d know this if you work in research. The ideas that see light of day do so not because they’re good in any quantifiable sense. It is because they convince the capitalists. This can be affected by so many things that aren’t merit or even cost based.
Some things make sense from a cost perspective, but not a profitability perspective. Profit isn’t just about cost. There’s margins, competition, longevity, etc. Something can be of moderate costs, but if the margins are too low or it is too long term or a project, it is of low value to capitalists.
I’m really struggling to understand what you’re getting at here.
Whether or not a decision maker is aware of science, their products will still be subject to the laws of physics.
Some things make sense from a cost perspective, but not a profitability perspective.
For example?
To simplify it, when capitalism answers “is it worth the cost?”, it is not answering “is the benefit of this thing to society worth the cost?”. They’re answering “are the profits I would get out of this and the risk worth the cost?”. And profits do not always agree with what’s good for society.
One example of moderate-to-low cost investments that are of demand in society but not very profitable and hence does not see focus is low-income housing (at least in the US). Housing developments disproportionally target high income or even luxury housing, as the margins on those are far better (but the costs are also much higher). Even nowadays, that this trend has been going on for a while, and luxury housing has really fallen out of demand (which greatly increases the risk), it continues. Luxury housing still looks a better investment to investors, when society does not need more luxury housing. It needs more moderate and low income housing.
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I think OP is just thinking of “cost” to mean capex. Whereas most real-world cost evaluations consider capex, opex, and opportunity cost, among others. Something having low cost but low margins will usually have a large opportunity cost, which increases the total real cost.
What kind of benefits are there to maglev trains that are not cost related?
Better acceleration, steeper inclines, tighter curves at same speed, better ride quality and less wear. As someone has mentioned below, normal trains could go a lot faster than they do in practice, because the ride quality, wear and wind resistance get atrocious, and the tracks need to be exceptionally straight. Making a maglev go fast is more feasible, though you still have the wind resistance issue obviously.
Where are all the maglev trains in non-capitalist countries? Sooner or later, in any system, someone has to do a cost benefit analysis and decide whether it’s worth it. It’s not just about profitability. There are plenty of situations in the US where something is unprofitable but still funded because the benefit is worth it.
Three of the six currently operating maglevs are in communist china
China is very much capitalist and has been for at least three decades now.
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“MVP” stands for “minimum viable product”.
They’re super expensive. Few people are willing to pay the massive amount extra for the slight dectease in travel time. Investors also know that.
Plane maglev tracks are way more expensive than wheeled train tracks. It’s slower to get expensive when the terrain stops being plane, but it takes a lot of roughness for it to become cheaper. Most countries just do without trains crossing rough terrain.
And the largest cost of almost any train is the tracks.
Where existing transit infrastructure exists, cities prefer upgrading existing infrastructure, rather than installing new infrastructure in its place, and where transit does not exist cities prefer not to install anything at all and favor cars typically. Maglev trains are extremely expensive to install the infrastructure, so gathering the money out of local budgets to invest in the extremely expensive maglev infrastructure is typically very difficult.
In the US in particular, politicians, just don’t look at the picture in the long term, and only focus on short term investigator as it pertains to their election schedule, and that is sad and has long-term impact on the local population.
Think about it this way, OP: You know when they’re working on the train network, how much you loathe commuting while a single line is out? How much of a pain replacement bus transportation is?
Now imagine having to do this for all train lines, everywhere, and you always have to switch trains (due to the difference in track) in between the blocks of replaced track. Plus you can’t neatly fit maglev where conventional track fits and vice versa, plus you need the power infrastructure, plus you need to find a way to buy the rolling stock without already selling the old one.
Also for the US the automotive and oil industries have powerful lobbies and an obvious interest in preventing the proliferation of electric-powered public transport. They’ve spent decades centering personal automobiles as the default method of travel and attack these projects with enthusiasm.
You still need rubber wheels when it’s stopped and at low speed. They retract when it’s fast enough for the maglev to take over.
The electrical conductors are expensive as shit. The ones in the train need to be super cooled or something. The track ones need to be built along the entire length. On three sides, one vertically and two horizontally. Along with massive power lines along the whole length. They don’t need to move to be expensive.
The right of way needs to be very straight. So compared to normal high speed, you have to spend much more on buying land, earth moving, tunneling, etc.
All this needs to be maintained to an extremely high degree because you can’t accept a failure. The engine on a high speed rail fails and you just slow down, no biggie. HSR track is fairly robust and can easily be inspected visually. Since it has the same base as normal passenger and freight you have an entire industry knowledge and inspection machines. Any part of maglev fails and you have a catastrophic failure.
One other thing I’ve not seen mentioned yet is capacity. Switching a maglev track is difficult and very slow, which reduces the number of trains you can get through a switch and therefore the number of people your system can carry.
We don’t have yet room temperature Supra conductors, it’s also why there was so much buzz about LK 99 this summer
What happened with that by the way? I’m assuming since I haven’t seen huge headlines since, it’s not been replicated or it’s been proven to be a hoax
Here’s an interesting write-up about an attempt to develop a large-scale urban maglev system in the 1970s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krauss-Maffei_Transurban
tl;dr: there were so many technical issues that when the West German company developing the tech lost funding and the Ontario government took over the project, they immediately abandoned the maglev concept and replaced it with linear-induction propulsion with steel wheels on rails (the mag, without the lev).
Even this tech, which does have a few advantages over conventional rail and is still used today in cities like Vancouver, is falling out of favour due to general logistical issues with using bespoke technology over conventional rail – fewer people know how to build and maintain it, you’re relying on usually just one company to supply your trains and infrastructure until the end of time, you can’t reuse any existing infrastructure, etc. I’d imagine these issues still get in the way of maglev development today – even more so because you can’t even reuse existing rails
It’s very sad tbh if it’s the reason. It means the companies are unable to teach their knowledge, expand their market and attract investment by themselves despite clear advantages. I wouldn’t be surprised, but it’s still sad imo.
The core technologies that UTDC (then Bombardier, now Alstom) took from this is still being used all over the world. The new Vancouver SkyTrain is still using Linear Induction Motors.
They’re very expensive to build. That’s it, really.
As others here have already mentioned the infrastructure costs alone are a huge problem, where I live we are currently just trying to electrify the corridor and it’s not even the entire system, once again the overall rail infrastructure is already there (it’s just electrification) yet this is still going to take a minimum of a decade and the minimum cost is going to be more than $11bn, technically this saves money as you don’t need to buy a new fleet of rolling stock just upgrade the old ones.
So ya for a maglev you would need a completely different infrastructure and the rolling stock
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Who are you talking to? OP didn’t provide any links…
Sorry, that was supposed to be in response to a reply to one of my comments - my bad!
