HEY BUT DO YOU WANT TO USE A PASSCODE?? PASSCODE! PASSCODE! USE THE PASSCODE! -_-
Yeah what the hell is up with that one? Seems so sketchy
Passkeys are okay, but your browser and OS want you to use them because you can’t just take a passkey to another platform, you have to create a new one, and it’s a pain in the ass.
It’s a lock-in gimmick latching on to a real useful solution.
My passkeys are tied to my phone, which I use via the browser and OS. I keep them in my password manager running on the phone. My password manager supports the open spec for securely migrating credentials between vendors.
It may be difficult to believe but they want you to use them because they’re legitimately significantly better.
Users are silly. They blame Microsoft for bad passwords. They blame Google for forgotten passwords. They blame Facebook when they click on a phishing link. They blame apple when apple “lets” someone who they gave their password to see their pictures. They blame apple when they don’t let the user in just because they forgot their password and every recovery mechanism.
Everyone involved has a significant issue with passwords because they cost them user satisfaction, credibility, or money directly. The reason cross vendor transfer has been slow is because everyone wants to be the leader, since if everyone follows your lead you get to make it work better with your stuff.
Ok that makes a lot of sense. It definitely seems like it’s more for them than it is for the user’s “convenience”
Passkeys are fine. It’s just MTLS but by marketers (if by passcode you mean passkeys. otherwise, what’s a passcode?)
Or worse:
Use email link -> use password instead
Enter password
Now enter the code that we sent you your email…
2 factor authentication, only when you feel like it.
They might as well be piping the password to
/dev/null
alternatives to passwords are just excuses to harvest info
Not if it comes to hardware-based passkeys I would argue
true, but i would also argue that’s a much less utilised alternative. most people don’t even know what that is even though it’s a great redundancy.
they don’t need to know what’s happening when a panel pops up on their phone, says touch the fingerprint scanner, and enrolls a passkey. it’s on the companies
It is quite normal to ask for an email address at registration even when using password based authentication.
As an autistic person I felt this in my bones. I cannot STAND email based authentication.
Just let me use passkeys at this point. The way that people typically use passwords is less secure anyway, why not just make it as simple as possible?
I would love to use my physical Yubikey, but all the websites I’ve seen that allow passkey login always deny both Yubikeys.
That’s a shame, yubikeys are a really neat tool. I’ve considered picking one up so many times
I love FIDO logins and next to fucking no one implements them :(
What are they?
Public key cryptography tied to physical hardware, so if you lose your phone / usb key, you need to use your backup recovery code; a fairly short one time password that negates the security benefits of Fido in one easy step.
It can also use biometrics, but that requires every device you log in on to have biometric readers.
Or you could use multiple fido key’s as backups
Magic link is lazy 2fa.
Implement TOTP support, you lazy fucks.
What’s the 2nd factor? Email and what else?
Email is considered insecure as a 2nd factor. TOTP stands for Time-based One-Time Password. Usually you store a seed and that combined with the time generates a time based password. If someone intercepts it, it’s only valid for a certain time frame (I think about a minute or so), after which it’s invalid.
Just to add, SMS is also incredibly insecure as a 2FA
Arguably less secure than email.
Yes but email is only a second factor when used in addition to a first factor (e.g. password). If it’s just magic link without password, then email is the only factor
Or the obscure ways for 2FA/MFA. Passkeys are mostly cloud based. Yeah fuck no! The weakest Passkey is weaker than my usual random generated password, if the site don’t do any shady business and require a weak password. Hardware keys are luckily not pushed for usage. I don’t like them either. You require at least 2, for backup reasons. They also cost quite some money and they have zero auth. Just connect to usb and tap it. Also retrieving the backup and get a replacement for a defective one, takes some time.
Good old TOTP as 2FA is perfect, paired with a strong, random password. With my TOTP, I have an encrypted backup in my cloud, on my NAS, older backups in secure places and backup codes in several places. The TOTP App I use is open source and I have a mirror of the source code.
This should be enough security, if sites don’t screw up all the time. You can bypass 2FA all the time. Even the credit card company screwed up big time. Usually you get 2 separate letters, one with your pin and one with your card. Both came on the same day. Also I actually didn’t needed the pin in the first place. I was able to add the card to the app and see the pin there, without actually verifying anything, except the credit card number.
Maybe when passkeys are supported in my password manager, I will try it but so far it isn’t and switching is not an option, as it doesn’t support the features I need. There is an open issue for an alternative password manager, with that feature request and it has some people wanting it, but its still not added. But passkeys doesn’t fix the issue for me using stronger keys, it fixes the site owners to allow stronger keys but they are still not required to use it. Some devs are just weird. I’ve read one PR for an FOSS project I use, where someone wanted to implement a universal oath or such stuff, that would support all types of external authentifications. Nope, the dev refused the PR and they wanted to stay at the 2 proprietary implementations, for 2 services, even though this universal implementation would work with these 2 too. I can’t tell exactly what it was. I was experimenting with an auth service for my self hosted stuff, to not deal with several accounts and rights systems. This service was the first one which I wanted to switch and they didn’t wanted to support it, leaving me with the standard login.
What password manager doesn’t support passkeys these days?
Vanilla KeePass. The Dev isn’t interested to providing a communication outside of its program, but he clarified, that plugins have all the right access, to do that but as it seemed to the dev, there is no dev interested to making such a plugin. KeePassXC does support it but they are still missing entry templates. This is the only missing feature that is holding me back to switch.
What the hell are passkeys? I think outside deep tech forums, nobody knows what they are.
Simplest way I can think to explain it is that it’s similar in concept to SSL. If you understand SSL you should be able to understand passkeys.
You can force auth on hardware passkeys for every activation. A sort of local password. Much more secure, also if somebody is in possession of your passkey and you didn’t just loose it somewhere you would be fucked anyways.
I have three, one for home, one for backup, and one for travel. I can See why ppl. Are annoyed by that, but speaking of costs, you can get these starting from ~20 Dollars. Additionally, passkeys could and should replace passwords and not EB generally used as 2FA.
Also many password managers (incl. FOSS) do support Passkeys, but having them in your password manager makes them arguably useless. Same if you use 2FA on your phone and a password manager and your phone gets compromised somehow.
I quote myself from a different comment:
I just needed to think of the scene from the Simpsons, where Mr. Burns and Smithers go all through the security checks and in the end, there is a flimsy open backdoor, where a stray dog entered the room. All security in the front doesn’t matter, if the backdoor is not secure at all and until the backdoor is that unsecure, I’m not willing to add money and time, to make the front door more secure.
The phone argument lacks a bit. Accessing the TOTP App and the password manager do require a separate authentification, to get encrypted. Sure if they snatch my phone away, when its fully unlocked, including my password manager, they have access for a limited time. They need to be fast enough, until I can remotly lock it or until it automatically locks itself. Android phones can now detect when they are stolen. Either by the movement or when it goes offline. The latter I tested and it’s not instant, but you still don’t have long.
I don’t think about potential backdoors. If there is no known backdoor, then I deem it save. Sure they also could me to unlock the phone. This would be xkcd 538. And this applies to any security.
Adding more security and inconvenience doesn’t make sense to me, so long the backend is shit. So far a few big companies did screw up hard in their backend and dozens of smaller sites do some bad stuff, that it doesn’t really matter how strong your login is. Here I reference back to my quote.
In a closed system, like a company, this added security makes sense, as they usually control the backend as well. If my CEO would send me a text request to reset his logins, I would call him or walk to his office, and ask him directly. Sure with AI, they could impersonate his voice but I don’t think they can impersonate his way to speak.
Well Passkeys are a good step to enhance security and remove potential backdoors from companies for one. As you have your private key that cannot be easily imitated and is checked by the company that you use.
And generally speaking, your phone can be attacked via software without even having physical access. So if your phone is infected they gain access (at some point during usage) to both your password manager and your 2FA. It is just never a good idea to have multiple thongs in one place.
On a side note, with physical access to one of your devices for a longer time, most things can be accessed by a malicious actor.
Of course everything can be hacked. When I think something is compromised, then I need to change everything. So far I didn’t heard of any remote zero click compromise. With the fancy hacking tools of some companies, its not publicly known how they gained access. I suspect either physical access or some malware. But we are speaking on a high level of hacking, that most people don’t need to be scared off. At that level, there are other things to worry about.
When we just look at the dangers an average person might encounter, this level of security is fine. I do had accounts compromised and I can exactly tell what my mistake was. One was sharing my password with someone else and not knowing how secure his devices where and not having 2FA. The second one was that I used the same password everywhere. At this point I was switching to generated passwords and still didn’t had every account changed (the unimportant ones).
Of course Passkeys are by nature a more secure implementation, as you are unable to save plaintext passwords but there is one thing that this can’t solve and that’s being that they remove and reset your auth, without verifying your identity. Hackers still can steal session tokens and sites don’t need to require additional authentification, when altering your authentification.
Every hardware based key I ever used also required PIN, but as far as expense and backups, yes, for personal use the cost generally may not be justified. I got all my personal ones as a bundle that was on sale. For work I would argue that some businesses can easily justify the cost to create a rotating stock of hardware keys to deal with lost keys. Generally in that environment you have centralized PKI, where you can revoke the certificate on the lost key and then issue a new certificate on a new hardware key. This doesn’t help for all sign in methods tied to hardware keys, but can be very practical when implemented right.
I also agree on TOTP as the ultimate generic 2FA method, with several worsening options until the despised email or sms 2FA. I will also add that you can setup TOTP on modern hardware keys, where you must insert and complete PIN entry. The inconvenience is that you must have all your keys and password manager available at setup time for places that don’t support multiple TOTP codes.
I didn’t invested too much time into hardware keys but requiring additional software on other PCs, still is a no-go for me. With my current setup, I only need my smartphone and I always carry it around.
For business use, this is a whole different topic. With a proper setup, all machines would require the software and you shouldn’t access these accounts outside from company devices. Its also an expense which the company must carry and its easier for them to handle backups. Also in that Setup, you can have SSO/LDAP, where you can physically proof that you are you and requesting resetting the MFA. With an online service, they usually require a weak proof, like just the access to an email account.
I just needed to think of the scene from the Simpsons, where Mr. Burns and Smithers go all through the security checks and in the end, there is a flimsy open backdoor, where a stray dog entered the room. All security in the front doesn’t matter, if the backdoor is not secure at all and until the backdoor is that unsecure, I’m not willing to add money and time, to make the front door more secure.
But you know what’s the safest way for us to keep your password safe? Not asking for one to begin with. By not creating a password with us you have no risk of it leaking, and we don’t have to deal with the responsibility of keeping it secure. The sign in link is going to your email, which presumably is protected with two-factor authentication, if you have it set up (which you should!).
https://www.404media.co/we-dont-want-your-password-3/
They had a follow up later too (paywall)
Password manager users living life on easy mode.
My email uses greylisting which is where the first email received from a server gets a “busy” response - the idea being that spammers just fire and forget whereas real mailers will retry.
Unfortunately, some senders take so long to resend that it’s timed out. The second time will work though. Unless they have multiple servers. Some have so many servers that you have to do this a multitude of times until you lose the will to login or forget what you were going to do anyway.
More people should use passkeys
Passkeys get undeserved hate
nah, too cumbersome and mistic
I can imagine that the sites want to validate that you still have access to the email associated with the account, and asking people to check their settings is annoying, and they know no one will do it. I can also imagine that sites want to know as much about you as possible, don’t want you to be using burner email addresses, and are probably selling the fact that your email address can still receive email to marketing firms who compile that info.
Annual/routine email verification fills that need, though. For the sites i do support desk for, an email verification link is sent during account creation and then annually. If the email address is not verified then on login the account holder is prompted to either resend the verification link or change it and verify the new email.
A lot of motherfuckers typing in code with a keyboard need a beating with said keyboard.
If a programmer can’t get a login form right they need permabanned from ever shipping another release.
Worst one I’ve seen: username and password plus a 2FA email, BUT if you hit enter instead of clicking the last button it refreshes the page.
