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wow, that’s really out there for being bee movie erotica
Idk I’m pretty hard rn
Yuuup. Woman in engineering here. I once had a supervisor whose behaviour I thought of as normal, but two guys I worked with separately reported him to HR for bullying after seeing how he treated me.
It’s funny, I had many years with almost no career progression, now my boss is a woman and I’m having to get used to the idea that bonuses and promotions are things that actually happen when I work hard.
My wife was marked down on her PhD because she “wasn’t nice enough” to her supervisor. All the assessors gave her top marks, but her supervisor vetoed them.
Please give her a hug from me. And if you happen to get a chance to stab her supervisor … well, I’ll not say do it, because that would be illegal. But sometimes accidents happen …
He ran into my knife 10 times.
Boys will be boys!
Glad to hear you at least had some decent colleagues!
Yeah, that’s the thing, the majority if guys are OK or better … it’s just there’s enough arseholes to hold women and minorities back when there’s no or unenforced DEI
I also am glad you got the support. I’m constantly reminded of a friend in college who was going through an electrical engineering undergrad with me. She got all the material so easily and literally dragged me through the classes. I wouldn’t have passed some key topics without her help. Fast forward a few years and I’m getting my PhD and I decide to see what she is up to: she ended up quitting her PhD program because of the insane abuse and misogyny she experienced in the department and instead changed to a masters in music. This was a woman who could easily have made field changing discoveries but was shut down because of close minded individuals. It still makes me rage and is the reason I work so much harder now to ensure my female colleagues and employees have an equal voice at the table.
Sad to say, but that’s a familiar story.
It’s great that you’re now making efforts to right that sort of wrong now!
As a man, it is insane to me that this is real.
I have a difficult time imagining malicious intent towards women by all these people. But given how common these stories are, there is something true about it. I just don’t understand why.
Is it really an unconscious cultural thing? Or am I naive about how my fellow men (I guess maybe women too) feel towards women?
Something in me refuses to believe that these people knowingly and intentionally harm women. But it sure as hell looks intentional.
I am not defending them. I am expressing my struggle with the reality of this shit.
Selection bias, the people who don’t discriminate aren’t causing harm so you don’t notice them but since they don’t speak up they aren’t helping either, so the jerks are still setting the tone. The solution is to not just do the right thing but actively call people out the jerks.
I agree with you there. As someone in programming, I don’t quite have the opportunity to fight these things when they happen because… There are no women. (obviously linked to this) but I can’t call out behavior when it happens when I am not around. But I am happy to report that I have been vocal about my support of trans people and fought against transphobia, even at work. Obviously I am not happy it is needed.
So I am trying to see and support victims of discrimination.
Personal experience from when I was newly an adult, and chatting with a female university classmate and somehow got on the topic of games and I started explaining what Steam was, because I just subconsciously assumed, her being a woman, didn’t know.
She politely pointed out I had mansplained to her.
I am very thankful to her for the experience as it’s stuck with me and saved me from making a fool of myself on more than one occasion since.
I’m sure there are possibly small things like this, that you may have been been “guilty” of in the past.
These men, are engaging in similar behaviour cranked up to 1000.
However, it’s even more malicious with them, because it’s not like the last 30 years or so haven’t had constant and increasing messaging (in the anglosphere, at least) about feminism and ways in which women have been treated unfairly.
So, it’s not like they haven’t had the opportunity to reflect, and change.
In summary, yeah, it is kind of baffling, but I will say society, while largely better than 30 years ago, still does have structural as well as conscious and unconcious bias towards women.
So I’m not surprised people like this exist.
I hear you but what cranked it up to 1000?
Like I always saw my mom as a extremely competent person, as a child she was flawless. Nowadays, I see her flaws but I am flawed, so if my father and any person I ever met. I am impressed by my sister and how I can be like the person that she is in many ways.
I am talking about my direct family because these women had a lot of influence on me. So I wonder, what was their experience like to think so poorly of women? Not blaming the women in their social circle for being “bad”, I just wonder wtf happened. Where does that belief come from? I don’t think they all had great experiences with their male role models but horrible ones with their female role models. So what is it?
I hear you but what cranked it up to 1000?
I unfortunately am not versed enough in the topic to give a full answer on this, I’d guess upbringing, then personal experiences?
I suppose it’s similar to people who are arseholes in general.
Sorry for the very underwhelming answer haha
I didn’t expect an answer. I am sorry if I made you feel that way. I just wanted to explore the topic with the general topic.
Your answer is a good as mine. I just don’t think people have good reason to be so judgemental to any group as vague as “woman”.
It is an odd thing anyway.
You’re simply not paying attention, because you don’t have to. Not to be harsh. I went from male to female and how I’m treated is night and day. You’ve never tried to see how the other side lives, and when you heard stories that went against your experiences you dismissed them like your mind is trying to do right now.
Why does it happen? Nurture. History. Patriarchy. I could blame a lot of things. It’s mostly that men never get treated the way they treat women.
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I understand all of that but it seems crazy that it would generate these results so systematically.
Idk. I certainly want a world where gender is a fun little thing and not an life defining element.
I think you’re naive but in fairness, it is shocking and hard to believe.
I’ve heard in my university that a lab manger/ head was trying to always get with the female students, and would ignore male ones, or would not allow male to volunteer in his labs. It’s very close to bordering SH. Most other labs with male PIs don’t really care about either gender
I want to say that “unconscious cultural” doesn’t exist, but I don’t think I’m right on it. You can easily build consciousness on those topics and thus easily spot the cases with risk for any wrongdoing, and with how common and well-known they are, it just feels more like “willingly ignorant”.
Assuming that it is cultural, as it seems like your comment kinda assumes that. Like it seems you are saying, it was cultural but by now it is kinda intentional.
I would argue “willingly ignorant” is bad but also not making it less “unconscious cultural”.
If they were willingly ignorant but also no cultural sexist, they wouldn’t be an issue.
So well you have a point, but I would say that the unconscious cultural sexism could lead to willfully ignorant and you would kinda expect it.
I am not saying, you are fully wrong about the willingly ignorant part, I just don’t think it would remove the cultural part.
Edit: ups edited the wrong comment. Sorry
That is horrible that anyone has to go through that.
And yet, the Supreme Court in the UK claims that trans people shouldn’t be afforded the same gender-based discrimination protections as their cis counterparts.
Discrimination is a social artifact, based on performed gender, not biological sex (whatever that means), as evidenced here.
here’s a related video from Angela Collier, if you want to read more about how women are treated in STEM
Not in stem but the same thing happened to me. I used to be able to speak to a room and be heard. Now I need to raise my voice, sound a little whiney or bitchy or nobody hears me. Only my closest friend still asks me for advice or to share my knowledge. Used to happen all the time.
At least I pass. I got that going for me.
Transitioning to a point of passing in my understanding (mtf or ftm) comes with pros and cons.
I often think about this article as well when it comes to trans men’s negative experiences once accepted as men: https://www.newsweek.com/trans-man-broken-men-1817169
When I was a freshman before transition, I had a guy save my number and call me like 2 years after we had an intro engineering class (we spoke maybe once?) to ask me out on a date.
I had that with a contractor who had had my number for work purposes. He kept trying for 5 years.
I’m a butch lesbian, my mistake was being polite and chatty with him.
My sister has a similar issue with a former classmate but for some reason she refuses to block/mark him as spam. it’s been years now and he’s persistent
It’s very hard to not be polite when that’s how you’re raised to be from day one :-/
Is that … a bad thing? I am missing something, did he take the number from somewhere or you gave it to him? But otherwise calling someone and asking out is a pretty harmless thing to do.
Not when it was a number used once to arrange a group project meeting and that we had not connected otherwise? Two years later - I had dropped out?
One thing I noticed as in my progress through as STEM major was the decline in number of female classmates. Calc 3 might have a reasonable number, but the drop off was exponential. The college run that got me through was done as a man, so I didn’t experience the stuff but I heard rumors. Worse than rumors from post docs in the lab I worked in.
Yep, if the number was not given specifically to connect that is what makes it inappropriate for me. But overall, an invite to a date besides being old fashioned is not necessarily creepy, even after long time. Of course, I don’t know if there were additional clues that made the whole thing creepy (tone of voice, phrasing etc.).
I studied computer engineering in Italy, and I can relate with the number of women being very low. I think there were maybe <10 women in the whole class on a ~60 people total after the first semester (starting with 250 people). Most of them were top of the class, which to me always suggested that while many men signed up and then “see how it goes”, only women who knew exactly what they wanted signed up.
It’s how women have to be excellent to make a male dominated thing a part of their life. It starts long before uni so you’re seeing it after other women have been knocked down and out of it.
Tbh, in Italy there is no much “before university” in terms of “being excellent”. The admission test was extremely easy, with a very high number of admitted students and on topics that are common to all high schools (we have a completely different school system in Italy). In fact, the vast majority of people in my class never studied those topics in high school. Also university costs were low (from 0 to ~2k/year depending on family income).
But I think that a mix of stereotypes (I.e. gender stereotypes), peer pressure (do you want to go study in a class 90% men) and other social issues definitely discourage all but the most motivated women to join, which is a shame.
The same exact thing applies to many other faculties of course. Psychology and “educational sciences” (literal translation) are basically just women (at least in Italy), which is exactly the same phenomenon.
Before university = the whole life lived as a girl before university is even in it. The whole time being held to a different standard, encouraged one way, discouraged another way, etc etc. Any interest or persuasion being dismantled and/or dismissed for decades before uni.
But what you are saying doesn’t match much the data (at least in Italy). In Italy females consistently get higher grades than miles, in all levels of school, and they do that from other women teachers (including STEM subjects).
How this matches “being held to a different standard”, for example?
They are the vast majority of schools in humanities (languages, classical studies, etc.) and all “licei” (=high schools created with the purpose of forming the ruling class back in 1920s) and they are the minority only in technical schools (which are generally lower quality schools more oriented toward professions than university) and in the scientific high school.
This also doesn’t seem to suggest any encouragement or discouragement in one direction or another, BUT it does match perfectly the culturally rigid gender stereotypes about women being more creative and fitting roles of care.
Also worth noting that women attend university in a higher % (56%) compared to men (also a result of gender stereotypes IMHO) and with higher grades on average. They are also the majority of PhD students (59%).
So my question I guess would be: why medicine and psychology are mostly and overwhelmingly women faculties, while engineering etc. are the opposite?
any interest or persuasion being dismantled and/or dismissed for decades before uni.
I wouldn’t say “any”, but I would absolutely say that interests in fields that are traditionally male-dominated are discouraged for women and viceversa (I have written in another comment, the imbalance in educational science is even higher than the one in engineering).
So I do see gender roles, I do see cultural influences about what is " for men" and “for women”, I don’t see the different standard women are held up to.
Dunja Mijatovic, commissioner for human rights at the Council of Europe, faulted Italy across multiple areas, lamenting that Italian courts and police sometimes revictimize the victims of gender-based violence and that women have increasingly less access to abortion services. She also noted Italy’s last-place in the EU ranking for gender equality in the workplace.
Absolutely…but how does that relate to the previous topic?
Stem is still heavily dominated by Men, biology might be different as more woman are in bio than men are, and becoming more common in other stems. engineer and programming sitll gear towards men.
I was actually joining the chat to write that things are not that different in biology. I have a PhD and 7 years of postdocs behind me. Over the years I have :
- been denied a management position because “the team was only men, who wouldn’t listen to me” (spoiler alert, they put an incompetent guy in charge who screwed up massively and I ended up taking over, successfully).
- had a boss who systematically doubted my opinion (while he was not a specialist of the topic) but listened to the very same argument from a male colleague
- had male Masters students who could speak uninterrupted during meetings when I couldn’t
- got denied a tenure position for a guy with the same profile (literally the same topic and same labs) but much less experience than mine (like 5 years younger) This last one broke me, I ended up quitting academia
Patriarchy is not only cruel towards women, it’s also dumb. It’s like corruption. We’re hurting ourselves, all of society, including men, by not giving the fitting positions and proper compensation and recognition to people who merit them.
I think attractiveness plays a large part in a lot of this too, for both sexes.
I think attractiveness plays a large part in a lot of this, too, for anybody.
Iftfy
Thanks, that’s a better way to phrase it.
Is this unique to women? Do men experience anything similar in women-dominated fields? I’m not actually sure what these may be; teaching, childcare, hair stylists? I realise this may make me sound misogynist, but I’m really clueless.
Unfortunately I’ve seen men tend to dominate the conversation in women dominated fields as well, but only if they are misogynistic. I work a lot in the fiber arts industry and more often than not it is assumed I don’t know anything because I am a man and humble, but I quickly prove my worth with my 20 years experience and it’s wonderfully collaborative. Then I see so many men come in and say, “Look I knit a sweater! This is easy! Give me praise!” and weirdly enough there are enough people out there that just feed those egos. I completely blame the men in this case, but this problem wouldn’t be so prevalent if everyone was just willing to shut these idiots down.
I know I’m gonna go on a hot take that looks like is deflecting the problem but I experienced bullying and seen it and it can be worse than how they treat women. I think is related to a play of power the alpha beta shit existed before it now just has a name. Is all a play of power over others an male social status in the eyes of other males may times is defined by the amount of vaginas they have, had and would have access to. I think is all related and women get the short end of the stick a lot more than men but some get get the stick that says “fuck your life haha”. Of couse some men take it entirely with women for some reason too so with them women get both sticks.
And (knowing the internet i say this beforehand) please with this I do not mean to do a whataboutism argument. Women do have a problem here as well as many other problems we all need go help with.
Is it me or is this a uniquely American experience?
I loved in quite a few countries and I’ve never seen this kind of absurd behavior. Granted, in a man, but I’ve never seen a man cut off a woman like that just because she’s a woman, and I’ve never seen or heard comments even remotely about someone being “exotic”. I’ve heard questions like “ohh, and where are you from?” in genuine curiosity, which is fine, I’ve never noticed overt racism like that.
Edit: to clarify, I am not talking about myself. Yeah I had idiots treat me like that and you just ignore them. I’m talking about never seeing this behavior in groups. I’ve lived in Mexico (loooasds of high testosterone machismo there) and even there I’ve never seen anyone that a women so disrespectful just because she’s a woman. Same for skin color or sexual discrimination or whatever. I’m sure it’s out there but in Europe, Mexico, Canada, I haven’t seen it.
Come to think of it: I have seen some of it. A guy who thought that at in company martial arts classes he could grab women’s breasts. I kicked him out immediately, I could not fire him unfortunately as that was not my call. That guy was of course a loud mouth American.
This just makes me think more and more that this may be a problem in all countries, just that it’s a huge issue in the US.
Sorry, but this sounds exactly like what male privilege is. Assuming that it doesn’t happen near you because you haven’t noticed it.
Ask your female friends what sorts of sexism they genuinely face regularly and I think you’ll learn a lot.
That is what I meant. I’ve never seen this behavior in meetings where someone just dismisses a woman/person of color/lgbt/etc just because.
I think this sort of behavior is especially prevalent in the US because even in Mexico guys didn’t behave like that.
Lol not from what I’ve heard about Italy
I lived in Mexico, arguably worse macho-wise, and even there men didn’t behave that shittily
Granted, i’m a man
you haven’t noticed racism and sexism because you are a male who’s the “proper color” for the region in which you reside.
male privilege and white privilege are often misunderstood to mean like “special privileges” and poopoo’d because plenty of white men struggle to get by in this world, but that’s not what it means.
it means the privilege of ‘being taken seriously’, the privilege of ‘benefit is the doubt’, privilege of ‘basic respect and decency’.
it also has the benefit/drawback of ‘privilege to be blind of misogyny/racism’. I believe you wholeheartedly when you say you’ve never seen it, but that’s the “privilege”.
The responsibility you hold in return for this “privilege” is you must believe the words of peeps who don’t share this “privilege” when they tell you their experiences. after all, why would you see these things? How else would you experience them when you aren’t directly a part of them?
'course you wouldn’t! That’s fine! Normal! why would you see them? those things aren’t directed at you. that’s really all the “privilege” is!
back to responsibility, be careful not to dismiss the words of people who have direct experiences of racism and sexism just because they don’t match your own. remember, these things aren’t directed at you!
have a good one
Dear God.
No, not what i meant.
I meant that I never saw other people behave like this in public, in group meetings, in the day to day lives.
I’m not dismissing anyone, don’t out words into my mouth. I was literally wondering if this issue is more prevalent in the US than in other countries because I haven’t worked in the US. Every time I read about this its the US.
In companies that I have worked or have owned I have never seen this behavior and I have never been made aware of it. My wife has never experienced.iy either. Haven’t seen this in Mexico, not in Canada either, not in Europe either. Mind you, these are personal experiences but I GOT EYES. I can see if someone behaves like an asshole and the only one single person that does come to mind in mexico, was a loud mouthed American who thought it okay to grab women’s breasts.
Stop nit with the male privilege thing. I don’t trample on your work, don’t trample on mine either
I’m trying to tell you that privilege affects us all. im saying that words like ‘i don’t see it here’ are a form of dismissal you need to be wary of using. Im not “trampling on STEM”, im explaining that preconceived notions of fairness you have can color your perspective, because you have not been forced to see otherwise. when i said “be careful not to dismiss”, i meant that your words were toeing the line towards dismissal. i can see upon reread that it could be taken worse than i intended, so i’ll be even clearer in saying “you must be careful not to”, not “you’re being dismissive right now”.
my whole point is: privilege is a double-edged sword and despite trying, your position in society means you cannot see these things as well as those who are forced to see.
Do you fundamentally disagree with this concept? Do you believe that what I’m saying is possible? I’m not coming at you from a high horse, im saying these things as someone who has reevaluated their own perspective with privilege in mind and wants to share what they’ve learned.
lol no, I have had problems in the UK and Europe. The old world is extremely hierarchical and the older generations have some weird lingering quasi-religous gender issues.
I live in America and haven’t noticed this as a man, I assume the misogynists have enough self awareness to keep it somewhat out of sight. The last time I noticed something inappropriate, the person quietly left the company a few weeks later. I have no idea if it was related to what I saw, but I wouldn’t be surprised.
I 100% believe that it happens, it’s just not visible to me.
Women work twice as hard for half the respect
Can’t believe you’re being downvoted.
Male’s priviledge huh, that’s new
Ah well welcome to a man’s world, It’s going to be really fun for you😂
Unironically yes. As a male STEM student, I had a much easier time finding a study group, I didn’t feel singled out and isolated in my classes, and people took the things I said seriously.
It’s like magic when I go to the doctor - the second they find out a uterus, it’s like their whole body language changes.
