Finally, another web engine is being developed to compete with Chromium and Firefox (Gecko), and they’re also working on a browser that will use it.
The devs have some problematic views, mainly transphobic and misogynistic.
Also, the use of AI-generated images on their website.
So?
For many small project is AI/copied images or no images at all.
When you do not have money you are not hiring a 2000€/month artist to do imagery for your website. You go online to copy something or nowadays you can use AI to wrap it up. It’s a tool at people’s disposition like any other.
And before anyone comes talking about copyright laws… shall I present them my 10 TB hard drive of pirated media? Human culture is to be shared, not gatekeeped.
you do not have money you are not hiring a 2000€/month artist
On the site I see like, one stock footage of a plant, one of a ladybird and some rando abstract graphics. What are you guys talking about here? Am I out of date? Should I ask for raise? (I’m not an artist but SW engineer, so probably not.)
Is this because they used “he” instead of “they” in the build instructions? … They changed that and acknowledged the mistake. Surely that’s enough. It’s the fucking build instructions. I think we can probably find it in our hearts to forgive them.
[edit] Just in case people think I’m joking. I’m not. As far as I’m aware, the critical incident that that has resulted in people calling Ladybird devs anti-trans is that they wrote ‘he’ instead of ‘they’ in the build instructions. That’s what caused the original outrage. And as far as I’m aware, there have been no other incidents. But please, if there is something of substance that I’m not aware of, post about it here.
To be clear, nobody was outraged by the devs using gendered language. The outrage was because they rejected multiple PRs to correct it under the guise of it being “political”.
The problem was more the fact that the devs viewed using anything other than ‘he’ as political, not the presence of gendered language itself. The devs themselves made a big deal about changing it. The way I see it, it’s not even about trans people. How about just women? Is including women in software developent considered political? One would hope not, but here we are…
I wouldn’t read too much into it. Using “he” instead of “it” is a mistake that a person might make if English is not their first language. It’s pretty easy to imagine that someone working on a browser would not be interesting in messing around with the pronouns in their build instructions. They made an error, and they didn’t think the error was important (which in itself was another error). But it is fixed now. Surely no harm done. They were not actively trying to impede anyone’s progress or deny anyone’s rights, or even say anything negative about anyone at all. They simply made a mistake in their use of pronouns in their build instructions. The mistake is now fixed. And although its fair to take it as a ‘warning’ that maybe there are objectionable views lurking in there, it certainly is not evidence of such views. I really don’t think it’s fair to hang this mistake over them. I’m sure that pretty much everyone in this thread has made worse mistakes throughout their lives. I know I certainly have.
I get the mistake. Wouldn’t even call it one tbh, just an oversight. But when someone points it out normally one doesn’t reply with “don’t force your political views onto me” as if non male devs was some weird “woke” concept. A simple “whoops, missed that” would have been perfectly fine and everyone would’ve moved on. With that said, having followed the whole debacle I can say it could have been handled better by both sides.
Such accusations should really be followed by a source.
Jumping to transphobic and misogynistic for not wanting to use inclusive language in some repo documentation is a big jump. He didn’t ever dead named anyone or refuse to use some person preferred pronoums. Its just not wanting to use inclusive language on documentation. Most, if not all, documentation I have ever read in my life don’t use the newest trend of inclusive language.
By they way accusations were written it seemed like devs were actually exposing hate speech or something like that.
Let’s not be like that, ok? At least I choose not be like that. You can destroy people lives with such accusations over basically nothing, be better.
I know that we are near Americans elections as it always makes the whole internet jumping, and throwing knives to find “the enemy”. But it could be as simple as inclusive language might be confusing for non english speakers, or might the trend change over time and it’s just a bother to keep updating with the lastest trend. Do you know how many versions of inclusive language did we have in my language? We started using ell@s, then ellxs, then ellos y ellas, then elles, then ellos, ellas y elles. It’s too volatile and little to be that mad over it. Specially when there’s people out there who truly hate anyone who is not a cis str male and is doing true hate speech over that.
If there’s more evidence of devs being evil, I will aknowledge it. But for such a little inconsequential thing (again it’s not even being against someone chosen pronoums, it’s just general documentation) I refuse to spread hate towards other human being.
I’ve seen some inclusive tech docs in which they (ha!) use “she” instead of “he” or “they.” I thought that was cool.
Are people writing “she” instead of “they” misogynistic and transphobic too?
I also try to use the feminine as neutral instead of masculine. -Note: I’m Spanish so our language is heavily gendered- Mostly because I think that sounds better than the trend of using a newly introduced neutral gender that sounds terrible because Spanish language never had neutral.
Also if someone gets angry for that I have always the reply “now you know a little on how women fell during all story”
But still, neutral and inclusive language is still too new and far away from normalization to get mad at people on how they use it or not use. And if you are not deadnaming or deadgendering (is that a word?) you are not really hurting anyone.
Are people writing “she” instead of “they” misogynistic and transphobic too?
There’s no such thing as “reverse racism”, “misandry”, etc. That’s not how systemic oppression works.
Right, reverse racism and misandry are just plain ol’ prejudice.
I guess it’s up to you whether you think being prejudice is only bad if you belong to the group systemically in power, or if you think being prejudice against someone for the circumstances of their birth is bad regardless of either party’s systemic stature, but we should be correct in our use of language.
It almost like a bot is posting this sentence every time SerenityOS is mentioned.
Using “he” insted of “they” is not enough to call someone transphobic or misogynistic. It’s like you become fascist and are targeting people for one different opinion. Which is not even true.
There are real problems transgender people are having, ladybird browser must be low on that priority.
There are real problems transgender people are having, ladybird browser must be low on that priority.
Are you trying to tell me that Ladybird inadvertently referring to a computer process ‘he’ instead of ‘it’ is not a high priority problem for transgender people? What could possibly be worse? :p
(But seriously though. I find it really weird that people are still upset at Ladybird about this. It makes me wonder if there’s some social manipulation going on. Like, is anyone actually upset about this, or is it just an excuse to attack the devs?)
Then it’s good you won’t touch it. Ain’t it?
Where do you guys get the energy to keep up these smear campaigns?
Oh gosh here we go again, as in Braves case.
Maybe you’re unaffected so you don’t give a shit. Or maybe you view gay people as scum undeserving of equal rights.
But donating money to try to reverse gay marriage is disgusting. As is donating money to a politician who said AIDS was a good thing and gay people should be cleansed of the earth by it. That’s tantamount to wishing for genocide.
It’s honestly tiring how many people in the tech/FOSS community just straight up don’t give a shit about certain demographics, or even hate them outright, and see any inclusion of them at all as “politics”.
I’m so very sorry that my view that gay people are human beings deserving of equal rights, and that we shouldn’t celebrate the idea of them all dying in agony, is so unpalatable to you 🙄
This Lemmy thread is not an appropriate arena to advertise your personal politics.
Meh, that just killed my interest in the project. I was really looking forward to their first release. Now I don’t care anymore.
I couldnt really care less about my chefs personal view as long as the meal is ok.
Cool. But some other people have morals, and wouldn’t wish to give a chef some money if he, for example, wanted to exterminate minority groups.
Maybe you’d turn a blind eye and say “well, I’m not in danger from him, so why should I care? I just want food.” but don’t be surprised when people think you’re a cunt because of it.
Cool. But some other people have morals
Come on, that’s a far stretch. What the person said does not imply that they don’t have morals.
don’t be surprised when people think you’re a cunt because of it.
Maybe no one should be, especially on the internet ;-)
Honestly, it surprises me that you’d be fine giving money to Nazis. Kinda weird.
It definitely implies that. If you’d give literal Nazis your patronage, you probably lack morals.
You’d be comfortable eating food prepared by a Nazi? I sure as hell wouldn’t.
Don’t put all all Ladybird devs in the same basket, there’s currently more than 1000 contributors.
Ok, Andreas Kling said some untasteful things a few years ago when it was mostly his project, but I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss the whole project for this reason now.
Like what?
Genuinely interested in knowing what he’s said.
removed by mod
Hot take: Since it’s a BSD licensed browser at some point in the future, there’s going to be a company that funds it brings it to mainstream with their flavor, and then will over throw chromium in time. Replace an ‘evil’ with another ‘evil’.
I like this project and just hope it was gplv3 or some similar copyleft license
All hail the cuck license, ensuring we end up back at the same place every single time.
Good intentions and all that
Isn’t that the road to hell? Paved with good intentions
As someone insecure in their masculinity I don’t know if u would use ladybird. Now if it was MANbird I would.
They should have called it ManDrill. Nothing more masculine than drilling a man.
Consider Edge you edgy man.
Sure, nothing is more masculine than having a preference for men.
How is it progressing so fast compared to Servo? Isn’t Servo being developed for a longer time?
Tom Servo?
What’s the problem with the gecko engine?
What’s the problem with the blink engine?
Multiple implementations is good for everyone.
I feel like like inventing the wheel every five years is not the best use of talented people’s time.
Right now most browsers are based on an engine owned by Google with a small percentage based on Firefox, which has historically depended on Google for significant funding. Not a great situation.
For something as important to modern life, its beneficial to have more diversity, if only to add different security flaws to it then exist in Chrome and Firefox.
People don’t need to build model trains either.
The project started as a hobby. People can do what they want with their free time.
Tell that to Microsoft. Lol.
There was a gpl licensed browser engine someone by hobby is writing from scratch. I think theese companies supporting ladybird just do so because of license that they can proprietarify(like chromium)
I agree. However, things are so bad in the browser market that even a proprietary browser could be good news if they don’t become a duopoly and actually compete.
We don’t have anyone actively working on Windows support, and there are considerable changes required to make it work well outside a Unix-like environment.
We would like to do Windows eventually, but it’s not a priority at the moment.
This is how you make “critical mass” adoption that much more difficult.
As much as I love Linux, if you are creating a program to be used by everyone and anyone, you achieve adoption inertia and public consciousness penetration by focusing on the largest platform first. And at 72% market share, that would be Windows.
I hope this initiative works. I really do. But intentionally ignoring three-quarters of the market is tantamount to breaking at least one leg before the starting gate even opens. This browser is likely to be relegated to being a highly niche and special-interest-only browser with minuscule adoption numbers, which means it will be virtually ignored by web developers and web policy makers.
Ladybird was originally started as a browser for SerenityOS, a POSIX operating system. Well into the project, they decided to make it cross-platform but that still meant POSIX ( Linux and macOS ). As interest ( and sponsorships ) came in from outside SerenityOS, focus moved more and more to the browser and away from SerenityOS.
Just recently, Ladybird decided to split from SerenityOS, allow more outside code, and in fact has dropped SerenityOS as a supported OS.
The project is fairly pragmatic. I am sure they will add Windows support as the core browser engine matures.
We would like to do Windows eventually, but it’s not a priority at the moment.
intentionally ignoring
I think you just read what you wanted to read don’t you think?
One salty downvote from @rekabis@lemmy.ca :P
Can’t win 'em all.
It’s nice and all but usage of Swift is kind of not great.
Why is Swift bad?
Also, I noticed the project has taken donations from mostly non-foss companies. Let’s hope they stand by their principles
Welp, I haven’t seen anyone learn Swift other than for Apple stuff these days. So I wonder how many can actually contribute to the code. It’s also made by Apple, so yeah. It would have been more performant and secure (both of which are pretty important in a browser) if it was written in a more low level language. For example Rust.
It is currently written in C++. They are looking to switch to Swift.
They looked into Rust but decided that GUI work was a pain and that they wanted something more object-oriented.
While Rust would probably have been a good choice for implementing a new browser, I don’t think Swift deserves the criticism it’s getting in this thread:
- Swift was created by the same person who created Rust, and has many of the same nice traits
- Swift is a modern language that is easy for plenty of developers to pick up; I’d place it in the same family as Rust and Kotlin
- Swift grants access to a large pool of native iOS/Mac developers
It’s also made by Apple, so yeah.
It’s also open-source? Like, Microsoft created C# and Typescript. Google created Go. Those get used without people bringing up their origins. Hell,
RustJavascript* was created by a homophobe. What, do you think the license lets Apple close-source everyone’s code if they choose or something?Sorry, I’m just really tired of these low-effort comments. The only thing that should matter is the language and if it hits the goals the project needs.
Sure. It is open source, but the development is done by Apple engineers. I also would like to state that Go has trackers in it. I also don’t really care what the creator of a language is. Homophobe, sexist, racist or other similar stuff, I couldn’t care less as long as the language is good.
You couldn’t care, as long as the language is good, but you care when it’s Apple?
You’re wrong btw. Sure, Apple engineers developed it originally. But it is now in the hands of the open source community, with over 1,000 contributors on github: https://github.com/swiftlang/swift
Edit: To be clear, unlike something like Chromium, Apple doesn’t even own the repositories anymore. It’s fully independent.
I said:
I couldn’t care less as long as the language is good.
Why wouldn’t I care if the language is bad in my opinion?
Okay, so what’s bad about Swift?
“More performant” citation needed. Very well written Rust might be extremely fast, yes, but Rust is also a hard language to get right. Swift is far from a slow language and I would not be surprised if the average rust programmer barely if at all manages to beat out the average swift programmer in terms of speed. As for the amount of programmers interested, hard to tell, but given the sheer amount of Swift devs I’d not be surprised if there were quite a few interested ones and I am unconvinced Rust programmers are statistically more likely to be interested in Browser development.
Benchmarks mean nothing. These aren’t the results of code written by an average programmer. Edit: and as a general note I would also like to point out the relative inconsistency of the results in terms of factor, only further reinforcing my point. I like Rust and all but we do need to admit it doesn’t magically solve all our problems.
Benchmarks mean nothing.
You’re free to suggest another method of comparing the two languages’ performance. This is the best we’re have, and Rust wins in every single benchmark shown there.
These aren’t the results of code written by an average programmer.
Citation needed.
I like Rust and all but we do need to admit it doesn’t magically solve all our problems.
I never said it did. I simply pointed out that it’s demonstrably faster than Swift.
lol
Shopify (i.e. Shittify) being their top donor already has me looking sideways at this project. They’ll invest in anything they think they can get an edge with and if something starts to happen they’ll fuck it up and wallstreet-ify it as fast as possible if they can.
Their (Shopify’s) guru founder Tobi made a huge NFT play that went absolutely nowhere while I still worked there. They spent a lot of time and money on it, right before they laid several thousand people off.
Oh great. Now I’m losing hope in this project even more.
I mean I hope Ladybird devs do a great build and go their own way without being corrupted by their donors and all that, don’t get me wrong. But whenever I see that dumb shopping bag logo I get the no feelings.
You can also read up on how the vast majority of Mozilla’s funding has been coming from Google for a very long time, and draw your own conclusions from that fact.
While I agree shopify has a kind of “mierda touch”, I still see it as if it goes sideways with them someone will just fork the code.
True
Do you have a source for that? I’m trying to look for donors but don’t really find anything.
Starts about midway down their page at ladybird.org
How could I have missed that, lol. Thanks.
Anyways, I don’t think it’s too weird. It might even be to simply have their name up there. We’ll have to see.
I read somewhere awhile back their platinum donors gave a certain tier (10k or 100k or whatever it was). To be clear I’m more than open to being surprised here, I want Ladybird to succeed. I just resent Shopify being involved in any way, I’m a little bit petty after slogging it out at that company awhile because I know what they’re all about.
Also I’m very much cautious about them on anything browsing related. Discovered (after others also) they let their search-pages-in-a-shop get indexed.
Meaning I could go to Caterpillar, search for “Wabtec is better” and then this search url (with 0 products) would turn up in Google searches and that URL persisted. Text and all.
Basically one could spray-paint and tag sites with this graffiti. Shop admins didn’t even have means to remove it.
Problem ignored and stayed this way for months.
Shoulda built it in Julia.
There was a gpl licensed browser engine someone by hobby is writing from scratch. I think theese companies supporting ladybird just do so because of license that they can proprietarify(like chromium)
i’d like to see a revival of webkit and an open source browser that uses it
I used luakit for awhile. Really fun to only use keyboard, but definitely lacking features that makes “modern” websites not suck so hard
Doesn’t Safari still use WebKit?
it’s the only one i knew about before the other comment. with more browsers using it, we may not need to build another engine from scratch to broaden competition
I think this is the argument that the Ladybird people have made:
- Chrome is dependent on Google ( obviously )
- Edge is dependent on Google ( based on Chromium )
- Firefox is dependent on Google ( 80% of revenue )
- Safari is dependent on Google ( $4 billion from Google )
- most other browsers are dependent on Google ( use Chromium ) - Brave, Vivaldi, Opera, etc
Ladybird is intended to be a truly independent browser and especially independent of Google.
Safari isn’t dependent on Google. It was just a no-brainer for Apple to take a free 20 billion dollars from Google for setting the default search engine to something most users would want anyway.
All the code is hosted on GitHub. Clone it, build it, and join our Discord if you want to collaborate on it! We’re looking forward to seeing you there.
So much for freedom when everything is done thru proprietary services under US jurisdiction.
I feel like this is a dumb question but why do web engines need constant development? I thought we had an established standard for HTML. Once a web engine matches that standard isn’t that sufficient?
some reasons that I can think of:
- performance improvements (e.g. JIT)
- new standards (e.g. WASM)
- vulnerabities
- new features (e.g. web engines weren’t always sandboxed)
established standard for HTML
That is constantly changing.
Like CSS or JS, or other modern web technologies nowadays browsers are capable of.
Some of the new features most people aren’t aware of us that I used recently :
- WebXR, make a Web page immersive and work in the browser of VR/AR headsets, e.g Meta Quest, Lynx XR1, Apple Vision Pro, etc
- WebBlueTooth, connect to a BT device, e.g a Lego controller in order to move actuator, data from sensors, etc
- WebUSB, connect a device and update its firmware, e.g SmartWatch, mechanical keyboard, etc
- GamePad API, use a gamepad or joystick to play from a browser window
- Realms in JavaScript for “better” sandboxing, it’s a relatively new feature of the language so the engine must be updated
So… sure none of that really helps to read a 2D Web page (like this one on Lemmy) but they pretty much all help to achieve better cross-platform support. By using the Web rather than native to connect to hardware then it is instantly delivered without having any OS specific driver to build and install. Practically speaking it does make the browser increasingly complex but IMHO it is worth it.
PS: I probably also used some modern CSS so there also the engine (which is ridiculously complex by the way) has to be updated too.
There are features that constantly get added. It’s not only HTML (maybe the html part is stable, I don’t know), but there’s CSS and most importantly JavaScript.
Also, browsers don’t always follow the standard exactly. Some features get added that aren’t in the standard.
I don’t know if it’s a good idea to build a new engine from scratch… Maybe it is but I don’t know, behind an engine you need to have support and development, so this thing needs to be improved and supported along the versions to be safe, so I don’t know if it’s a good idea or not 🙃
