that doing more work, takes more time.
Gamers are especially guilty of this.
"that 2013 game runs at a smooth 60 fps. This medern game running at quadruple the resolution with raytracing sometimes dips to 58 fps on the same hardware. Devs must be lazy, they just need to add OPTIMIZATION to the game
I don’t know what it’s called, but it’s a common phenomenon: available room will be exploited. It’s exactly why computers nowadays don’t feel faster than computers from a decade or two ago: they do so much more because they can.
Stuff like electron would’ve been impossible in 2000 or 2005: it’s just a behemoth in terms of computational needs and power consumption. Earlier computers would’ve struggled endlessly with it. Current hardware however makes it seem as fast as previous tech.
Requiring a candidate to know a specific programming language is stupid. Nearly all of the commonly used languages in industry are similar.
It’s maybe more valuable to require knowledge in a specific framework, where knowledge is less transferrable between popular frameworks. Nonetheless, I personally rather hire an engineer that solves problems and learns flexibly rather than one that happens to know the right tech.
I’d say this is pretty dependent on the language. For example, with C++, you need to micromanage (or at least benefit from micromanaging) a lot of things that you can get away without knowing about at all with other languages. That stuff takes time to pick up if you’re self-teaching as you can write stuff that looks like it works without knowing its half as fast as it could be because you aren’t making use of move semantics, and if a colleague is teaching you, then that’s time they’re not spending directly doing their own work. On the other hand, someone with Typescript experience could write pretty decent Javascript from the get-go.
C++ is unique in that it is wildly dominant in its niche. I am sure that any developer who has worked with another object oriented, manually memory managed, systems programming language (are there any other popular ones out there?) should have no trouble picking up C++.
There are other rarely-used C+±like languages that fit your criteria, and they basically all aim to eliminate the kind of thing I was talking about. If someone was used to one of those and tried picking up C++ for the first time, they’d probably end up with working, but unnecessarily slow C++, having assumed the compiler would do a bunch of things for them that it actually wouldn’t.
The popular low-level systems programming languages that aren’t C++ are C and Rust. Neither is object-oriented. C programmers forced to use C++ tend to basically write C with a smattering of features that make it not compile with a C compiler, and produce a horror show that brings out the worst of both languages and looks nothing like C++ a C++ programmer would write, then write a blog post about how terrible C++ is because when they tried using it like C, it wasn’t as good at being C as C was. Rust programmers generally have past experience with C++, so tend to know how to use it properly, even if they hate the experience.
I used to agree, but now I’m not so sure. There are huge time savings in having someone already familiar with a specific technology. They’ve ran across an issue before and can quickly find the solution.
For example, I started learning Elixir a little over a year ago. I struggled with how to get it to change data in place, and the answer is that you don’t. You work with data in an immutable way; you make a copy with the change made and throw away the original. Once you get used to it, this works very nicely, and Elixir has quickly become one of my favorite languages. However, few other languages force you to work immutably, and nobody does it voluntarily. It takes a bit to get your head around it, and you’ll take a lot longer on any given task until you do.
I generally agree with this, there’s specific circumstances but for the most part its true.
I went from a C# position to PHP, to Python, to perl all with little or no experience with what I was jumping in to. There’s different nuances and the syntax might take a bit to get used to but as long as someone understands the how and why of what their code is doing that can be pretty easily transfer to most other languages. It’s all about the fundamentals.
It is better to find a developer that has experience with the language features you use rather than one that is experienced in the exact language you use. For example, I work on distributed systems in Java/GoLang/Python. We want candidates that understand how to write concurrent logic and stay away from people who are just Java web developers.
The big issue is doing a coding interview with candidates. We have a standard straightforward problem that candidates need to solve by filling in a stubbed out method. We have it in Java and have ported it to GoLang. If we have to interview a candidate who does not know either of those languages, we would need to find a language that the candidate knows and we know well enough to port the problem to. We would also have some difficulty digging in to design specifics like choice of concurrency primitives.
It’s not a black and white issue. “Jack of all trades, master of none” vs “expert of one”. Both have their place and I think it’s better to have a mix than just one or the other.
I’ve seen python newcomers writing code as if they were writing in another language. They don’t know about dataclasses, operator overrides,
__init__vs__new__, metaclasses,__init__.pyvs__main__.py,@property,match, the walrus operator,orassignments, or the common pitfalls of python like mutable defaults, type hints, and a bunch of other things.
Knowing a language in-depth helps write DRY code, avoiding common pitfalls, handling things better like debugging, profiling, and other tooling, and avoiding pitfalls of the language, which newcomers have to first learn, regardless of how their experience with other languages.A lot of stuff is transferable, for sure, but every language uses different idioms, covers different paradigms, and so on. It’s good to have at least one expert on the term to teach others, and to have people flexible enough to switch of willing to learn. Having only experts can mean a static team unwilling to experiment or use better programming languages or technologies. Having only beginners or mediors of a language can produce functional, but sub-optimal code. YMMV
That “just changing a word” is easy and quick. A codebase is an iceberg. Management only really typically understands the surface, but there is a disproportionate amount of ice under the water.
I had to change all instances of a label from a word to an abbreviation. Because we don’t have i18n set up in the app, it ended up affecting 55 different files. I did my best to consolidate into everything calling a common function, but it’s far from perfect. 55 files changed because management said “oh this word here should be shorter”.
piping
findtosedwith some possibletr,awkor perl sprinkle is your friend** not discounting the risk of ending up wasting more time than planned trying to get one complex regex right
Oh I used some interesting IDE-based searching. QA closed the ticket so apparently I got them all! Haha.
Honestly? The people who say “learn to code” as the solution to getting a better job. Only some people can do this.
Also the idea that tech “just works”. Have had freshly-minted CS/info types suddenly realize why the phrase “back away slowly” exists.
Myth: code can be ugly as long as it works, don’t spend company time on making it look good or on minor optimizations.
The truth is that you can tell when effort has been put into a job. Even if it just works, the lack of discipline means that in the end it will be difficult to maintain and probably will fail in unexpected situations.
Every language has its conventions, but if I spot more than a line of separation between blocks of code, that is a common telltale sign of noob. Run from that shit.
That a “working” prototype with no tests is just as good as a carefully-designed and well-tested feature. I see this happen so often that a coder puts a prototype in front of a product manager or exec and they are like, “this is exactly what we need, now! Ship that!” And then misery ensues for all of the engineers that need to maintain this piece of garbage. As managers pressure the engineers to build new features on top, they inevitably break fundamental parts of it, and without a confident leader to demand that tech debt is paid off, that product will consume the souls of many desperate coders.
In contrast, if you do it right the first time, there will be significant parts of code that never need to change, and the parts that do need to change will be much easier, because it will be obvious if it breaks the tests.
feature
Please, we ship whole projects without any automated testing whatsoever then we spend month fixing the mess. The company I work for is smort
hey it’s job security
The company I work for is smort
This is every company I’ve ever worked for. If other people didn’t vouche for their own tests, I’d assume automated testing was a myth.
That sounds super familiar :D
Anyway, a prototype is not a bad thing, if the managers know the difference. It’s easier said than done to “do it right the first time” if you don’t know how / what to build. Prototypes can be built to validate hypotheses and generally figure out what works, then build the real thing afterwards.
Yea I should have clarified. Prototypes are a great idea. The problem occurs when you say, “this is good enough we can improve on it as we go.” Yea good luck balancing priorities when everything breaks from tapping your keyboard too hard. You MUST NOT MERGE the prototype.
I like puting my prototype code in namespaces like “garbage” “trash” “throwaway” etc to emphasize how unfit for production. I’ve no concrete evidence of it’s success, but I like to think it dissuades other team members from using it where they shouldn’t.
oh yeah and the overt emphasis by suits on frontend development because it feels more tangible. like yeah sure we can add a follow button in a couple lines of code… granted you want to allow duplicate requests by non-signed in users or users that block each other with no manual approvals support, no protection against CSRF and the followee not getting notified
As my first job out of college (when I didn’t know what I didn’t know) I was hired to build a bespoke inventory system for a manufacturing company. My prototype became a production system the second I showed it to one of the engineers. The next three months of my life were a living hell as I frantically fixed bugs on a live system. Lesson learned.
That programming as a career means you’re going to spend writing nice, clean code 80% of the time.
It’s rather debugging code or tooling problems 50% of the time, talking to other people (whether necessary or not) about 35% of the time and the rest may be spent on actually spending time doing the thing you actually enjoy.
I may be exaggerating, but only a little.
I really don’t mind any of it though.
Different strokes for folks I guess 🤷♂️
This one might be a bit controversial, but has rung true in my general experience. Probably a lot of exceptions to these rules, but here goes:
You don’t really know a programming language until you understand a fair amount of the standard library and how packages/modules/dependencies work. Syntax is pretty easy, and any mainstream language will work just fine for solving basic leet-code style problems. But when you really spend a lot of time working with a language, you’re going to spend more time learning about common libraries and how to manage dependencies. If you’re working with a language like C++ or Java, this could also include build systems and how to use them.
Another precursor to being able to say that you know a language is that you should also be familiar with best practices (ie. how to name modules, how to write documentation, etc.) and common pitfalls (undefined behavior, etc.). This is one of the hardest parts about learning a new language in my opinion, because the language may not necessarily enforce these things, but doing them the wrong way can make your life very difficult.
That’s what I hate about javascript, it doesn’t warm you about undefined behavior, it just throws.
I used to not really care about that, but after learning C and Rust, damm, I wish there where result types everywhere
Some small nits to fix:
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C has it’s own undefined behavior.
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JS has confusing behavior, not undefined behavior. Its specs are well defined and backwards compatible to a fault, making some things unintuitive and harder to learn if you don’t learn the history of the language.
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Problems with both should be avoided by learning and using standard practices. (Don’t pretend C is object oriented, always use
===instead of==in js, etc…)
In complete agreement:
- Result types are awesome, all future languages should be designed around them.
thank you very much.
By undefined I meant the usage of undefined in the language, however you phrased it way better :)
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Counterpoint: knowing a programming language doesn’t matter if you can solve problems. A competent programmer can pick up a new language and be productive within a few months. That is, a new language within the same paradigm - going from a imperative language to a functional language can be a drastic shift, but going from one imperative language to another is easy. If you can’t do that as a intermediate to senior developer, you’re not a competent programmer IMO.
The real skills of a good programmer are things like problem solving, debugging, understanding how to write readable and maintainable code, etc. Having deep knowledge of a specific programming language or languages is helpful and enables you to work faster, but if you’re only a skilled developer in the languages you know - if you aren’t capable of pivoting those skills to another language - you aren’t a skilled developer IMO.
Agreed overall, you will still be competent switching from one language to another, but intricacies and nuance matter a lot here. You may have enough knowledge to solve problems, but will you have enough knowledge to avoid creating new ones too? Like performance issues, or memory leaks, or other unwanted behavior? C++ is a great example here: someone that’s smart but inexperienced might just be dangerous enough to start writing classes with dumb pointers without overriding the copy constructors, and this is just a recipe for disaster.
I think it would take more than a few months to develop the kinds of experience that you need to be aware of these issues and avoid them. And while C++ is a very easy example to point out here, pretty much all languages have their share of footguns to be aware of, and it just takes time to learn them. A “deep knowledge” of a language is not just about being faster and more productive; it’s also about not creating more issues than the ones your solving.
I think the degree of footgun danger depends a lot on the language and the application. I agree that C and C++ are dangerous until you really know what you’re doing, though IMO most of the danger comes down to memory management and that’s a portable skill, once you’ve learned it. That being said, I don’t have a lot of experience with C++. C was my first language so I’m used to plain old normal boring pointers (are those “dumb pointers”?) and I’ve never understood why C++ needs 9 billion types of pointers.
Go has one particular footgun - loop range variables. Other than that, IMO high-level, garbage collected languages don’t have major footguns like that. My first job was writing a bespoke inventory system for a manufacturing company, and I wrote it in a language I’d never used before - C#. In five years the only major issue that had was due to my inexperience with SQL and had nothing to do with C#. And though I haven’t written nearly as much code, I’d say the same about Java, Ruby, Python, and JavaScript.
Myth: software engineers replicate value similar to a factory worker making the same item over and over
Truth: software engineers are closer to artists than factory workers IMO. We find and create new value, not replicate existing value
eh, more like self-important plumbers
Just making some corkscrew pipes because the existing architecture is corkscrew piping.
Or adding a single non-corkscrew pipe out of principle, which all the other corkscrew plumbers now have to maintain for 20 years
And just like artists, the vast majority aren’t very good at it.
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I feel this. But, in a lot of jobs you have someone forcing you to do art the way they had envisioned lol
Programming != Computer Science. Programming is just a tool used in computer science. Computer Science is so much more and follows scientific theory and methodology.
Computer programming is to computer science as telescope operation is to astronomy.
A better analogy is writing vs writing.
Do you know how to hold a pen and draw letters? You can write. Do you want to write a best selling novel? Yeah that’s a different skill.
CS is also what most problems on leetcode and the like are about. Programming is just application of CS concepts, usually wrapped in several layers of abstraction, to domain specific problems. But I’ve never seen a job posting for a computer scientist specifically, yet we all know how it often looks like.
I’ve got a lot of these.
Programming is not doing leetcode problems all day long. Those problems can be a good brain exercise or a good prep for a [misguided] technical interview but in a real programming job you have next to no chance of running into problems like those. Even if you do, you’re an idiot if you spend hours toiling away at a problem that somebody else already solved much more efficiently than you will. Your boss doesn’t give a crap if you pulled all of the code straight from your brain.
Programmers are not hackers. The reverse might be true but hacking is about finding problems (and exploiting them) while programming is about fixing problems.
A programmer can do anything that involves code. Maybe not quite this succinct but I think most will assume you can write a mobile app or a website just because you say you can code. Websites, games, apps, and so on are written in code but they all involve different technologies, toolsets, and standards. I’m sure I could fumble my way through any kind of software but don’t expect it done quickly if it’s not my area of expertise.
I’m pretty sure that when programmers and other techies call themselves “hackers”, they don’t mean in the security-breaching sense. It means that you can “hack together” something.
tbh the biggest upside of competitive programming sites was when I finally learned some Scala so that I can feel smug about my elegant one-line solutions dabs in a very specific way that makes my arms resemble a lambda /s
Yeah, it has helped me learn about Rust. I mean I still don’t know Rust but it made me realize it’s not for the faint of heart.
Programmers are not hackers. The reverse might be true but hacking is about finding problems (and exploiting them) while programming is about fixing problems.
You have to find a problem before you can fix it. All good programmers are hackers.
Programmers have the source code right in front of them, hackers usually don’t. It’s quite amazing what they can do taking shots in the dark.
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depends. Desktop code, sure, reverse engineering from assembly takes some time but some good dissasemblers might be able to produce some C skeleton to start from. Though you might get lucky just exploiting the supply chain of bloated open source with a hellton of vulnerabilities deps/infra like glibc, apache or sudo.
But web code? Sure, minifiers exist but not every website uses them and even if their do, thanks to all the new stuff since ES5 you can for example spend way less time doing something like finding a Math.random() based, ergo cryptographically utterly broken PRNG.
Or for example you can easily rule out whether the website uses header-to-cookie based CSRF protection by just checking the console on any authenticated write-like request. The rest could be automated with things like zaproxy or selenium/curl-impersonate/puppeteer scripts.
“Hacking” also has plenty of specialties like programming. When I think of hacking my first thought is remote, non-http services. Webservers are fair game for hacking but they’re also meant for public consumption so I’d guess monitoring is a bit more severe (not that companies don’t skimp on intrusion detection).
This one’s a hot take, but: That Python is easy.
I’ve had to work with it in three projects in the past five years and I consider it one of the hardest programming languages, for anything but very short scripts.
You don’t get proper compiler assistance, unless you have 100% test coverage. You don’t get a helpful text editor. You don’t usually get helpful type hints in libraries you use, so you have to genuinely just study the documentation and/or code. You get tons of quirky behavior in the stdlib, build tools, async stack, imports. You get breaking changes in minor versions of the language.
I find writing code in Python extremely mentally taxing, because you just get so little assistance, that you have to think of everything yourself.
I think Python is easy to learn but difficult to get past the basics. I’m also not convinced that getting past the basics is even worth it in three long run. I say this as a person who has used all Python at work for roughly 70 percent of the last 15 years. My current position is moving to Rust and my last 2 positions were moving to Go. Everybody was happier.
Agree, also just in general I find many things Python very odd and syntactically isolated to some extent. Constructors, lamba, dictionaries in particular are extremly whack.
I’m a scientist that has been coding almost exclusively in Python for the past decade and I strongly disagree.
Python is great at being the glue that holds everything together, and everything crunchy part of the program is being handled by a library anyways.
I code with two terminals, one for iPython and one for vim. And you don’t need anything else. The beauty of Python is that it’s not a language that is so full of boilerplate that you need an IDE to type it for you to be remotely productive.
Overall, Python is a language made to be used by people that need to make something that just works and don’t need to spend years learning programming paradigms and industry practices. Fortran and C are so unwieldy in comparison and everything more modern lacks the expansive and diverse libraries of Python.
Overall, Python is a language made to be used by people that need to make something that just works
This is why you find it easy, and why the person you replied to finds it a big pain. The friction other languages would give you exists to provide structure on a larger scale that makes that guy’s work easier. Like you implied, different languages for different jobs.
That coding interviews are even by the tiniest measure good indicators of how capable a candidate is for a software engineering job.
I saw a great thread on Mastodon about this: link
Some programmers are software engineers. They solve problems, sometimes problems with great ambiguity or non-straightforward solutions.
And some programmers are… code technicians? They understand and write code, but their job seldom involves problem solving. Often times, they’re asked to code an already solved problem, or mostly solved.
This is not a diss. I was in the second camp for a while. But it hurts your career to stay in that. So be careful.
Same. Writing code is FUN! However that’s not the only goal there is. It’s a part of the puzzle. Perhaps it takes some maturity to reach that point.
Gamers demanding changes saying “it’s literally one line of code”
yeah maybe would be true if FP/FRP was widespread in gamedev… but then the industry would be moving at significantly slower pace ¯\(ツ)/¯
