Permanently Deleted
Here in Germany we are extensively educated about what happened in the 3rd Reich. It’s a big part about our education to learn and understand what horrible things happened and why they happened to make sure this never happens again. This kinda lead to the point where many Germans are deeply ashamed just for being a German (even though they’re quite far detached from what happened) and this is also a reason why you won’t find many German flags hanging here.
Yeah, we didn’t do that. At the end of the civil war, Lincoln was assassinated, and Johnson just kind of said “yeah we good now” and good portions of the US still hold Confederate views.
Hijacking your comment to add that a tom of Americans are ashamed to be American. That just happens to correlate with higher educated Americans. And there is currently a leading political party that celebrates the confederacy and is actively attempted to keep Americans from getting educated.
Nationilsm breeds effectient workers, and education hinders Nationalism.
I think your conclusion about German genocide being based on religion has a pretty large blind spot. The Nazis executed based on ethnicity (slavs, Roma people…), not to mention sexual proclivities or even disabilities. Also, the Nazi Holocaust wasn’t the first German genocide of the 20th century, which Germany kickstarted in 1904 by genociding the Herrero and Nama peoples of Namibia, then colonial German South West Africa. So I believe the racial stereotypes are a part and parcel of most European bigotry and not in any way exclusive to the US.
People one might call “black” make up roughly 12% of the population of the USA but just 0.5% of the population of Germany. Furthermore (and this shouldn’t be surprising after centuries of repression) the black population of the USA is, statistically speaking, doing a lot worse than the rest of the country.
(Population numbers are from Wikipedia.)
Thus, from a German point of view, black people are rare individuals. From an American point of view, black people are a large, distinct subpopulation and it’s easy for a person looking for a reason to reinforce his racist beliefs about them to find it.
Also (and this is is conjecture) I suspect that Germans outside the far right may be unusually reluctant to stereotype minorities, for obvious reasons. In that sense, Germany rather than the USA may be the outlier, but the problems in the USA are going to be particularly visible because the USA is such a huge presence in global culture and because the different groups in the USA are easy to distinguish while the ones in many other countries look and act the same as far as an outsider can tell.
I wonder if there have been strong efforts of American politics and society to get rid of these stereotypes and gain equality for everyone.
Of course, and stereotypes are not tolerated in many contexts. For example, I’m a white-collar worker and I’m pretty sure that I would have serious problems at every job I ever had if I said or did something racist at work (or even outside of work if it became sufficiently public).
That is a good point (although it seems like dark skinned population in Germany is closer to 1 percent so it’s probably 1/100 in Germany and 12/100 in America). But I think it’s noteworthy that Germany also has large numbers of migrant population and a big percentage of people are from the middle east who also have different features but even a quite different religion being the Islam (seems like Muslims make up about 7% of the population) and people here don’t really make a big thing out of whether they’re ethnicity is Arab or German or if their religion is Islam or Christianity. Although there’s a growing population being against them I think the general consensus is that Germany is very open for migration and we take many refugees. About 17% of the German population so almost 2 in 10 people are first-generation immigrants and in America it’s only 13% (and soon properly way less since it seems like they will mass deport illegal immigrants?? That btw seems crazy to me but I don’t wanna get political). About 55% of the Muslims also have German citizenship and many of them lived here for multiple generations.
But I appreciate that stereotypes are not tolerated in some American jobs, that’s a good start.
Germany is also full of racial stereotypes. Particularly towards people from the Middle East and eastern Europe. It’s actually quite bad. I’ve known people who moved to Germany to study who decided to move back just because of the racism.
I immigrated to Germany some years ago and the Ausländerbehörde had pre checked the checkmark saying I would need welfare on my paperwork. I had to argue for like a 15 min to get them to uncheck it. Even after showing my voluntarily paid German taxes for the past 2 years.
I don’t even look brown. I imagine other people have it even worse.
Like I mentioned in my post I wasn’t trying to downplay the racism that’s also still prevalent in Germany at all.
From my view and from other Germans I talked to who even lived in America it just seems like Americans overly focus on ethnicity and these stereotypes linked to that on a daily basis that’s dividing these people to a bigger extent than in Germany.
Maybe I’m wrong here and I don’t want to discard any personal experiences with this that are different especially for people who were more directly affected by this. And I’m very open for thoughtful and fair education about it.
But generally it seemed like to me that Germany is pretty open for migrants and refugees. Currently 17% of the German population are first-generation immigrants where in America it’s only 13% of the population with the plan to also soon mass deport illegal immigrants.
55% of all Muslims also have German citizenship and to me it felt like that many of them are very well integrated with many even living here for more than one generation and are pretty much being treated like any other German.
I think the clash might be more with immigrants/refugees who aren’t from Germany and can barely speak the language. Because when you’re living here since birth no one really questions your ethnicity whereas in America it seems to be a thing of daily occurrence where people are divided by just their skin color even though all of these people involved are as equally American and lived there for multiple generations.
From what I understood there are even schools for only black people. These such things are unthinkable from a Germans perspective. I don’t think we have schools that are only for black, or Jews, or Arab, or Muslim people.
I’ll give you an example as well: I know a German girl who has Asian ethnicity. She told me that her ethnicity basically never was a thing in Germany where she was just another German. But when she was doing an exchange year in America she noticed how big of a thing it is in America to make a deal out of someones ethnicity like when it’s Asian which felt very weird to her.
I’m sorry but what is making you think social stereotypes in the US are not prevalent for the same reasons social stereotypes are prevalent in Germany?
Like I mentioned in my post I’m not at all trying to downplay any of the racism that also still exists in Germany. To me and other Germans I know who even lived in America it just seems that Americans overly focus on ethnicity and these stereotypes linked to that on a daily basis that’s dividing these people to a bigger extent than in Germany.
Maybe I’m wrong here and my personal experience might be different from yours but I would love to understand more generally about this topic in a scientific way. That’s why I asked this here.
So correct me if I’m wrong but please be thoughtful and fair in your answers.
Addressing the education portion of your question, I grew up in the American South in the 1980s-90s, and I learned plenty about the horrors of slavery and Jim Crow in school. I recognize this is a single data point, but am pretty sure these are widely taught. I also don’t really hear anyone calling for a return to slavery or Jim Crow, so this education seems to have successfully imbued our culture with a sense that these are bad things.
I think your overall question is answered somewhat by the fundamental demographics of each country. What percentage of Germans today are ethnically German? A lot. In the US, our racial mix is much more fragmented, to the point where racial minorities have thriving subcultures that some people don’t view as extolling “traditional American values,” whatever those are. But these subcultures are increasingly visible and powerful, leading to resentment among many who view their culture, that of “traditional American values,” as losing power.
The single largest ethnic group in the US are people of German descent (I’m one of them), with well over 40 million people, and these people along with people of British descent are largely the ones driving this “traditional American values” bullshit. People of Irish descent used to be subject to serious racism in the US in the early 20th century, but have since been fully accepted into the dominant white culture and many now also participate in white racism against Black and Hispanic people.
German Perspective
I wouldn’t cast stones in glass houses.
Wow, wild, uneducated thread.
Racism isn’t based on race, it’s based on power. That’s why America is still a race-based society in late 2024
Everything is still segregated in the Southeastern USA. I can’t really say how much is done because of actual direct discrimination or otherwise, but there are separate mostly black and mostly white areas in most cities.
The States of the USA are much more autonomous than it may seem from the outside. The southeastern USA is the Republican stronghold. Republicans have long acted like a criminal organization with gerrymandering that minimizes the votes of black and educated communities. If you look at the map of average credit scores of citizens in the USA, you will see the Republican regions as if looking at the political map. Republicans are toxic misers when funding government. The police in the Southeast are poorly equipped, poorly paid, and poorly trained. It is a job that attracts some of the worst kinds of people, and when they are sent into poorer areas with people that have a slightly different culture than themselves, they tend to act stupidly.
Republicans have played the long game of ignorance. Americans are poorly educated across the board, and especially in the Southeastern USA. Uneducated people are more easily manipulated into populism or by platonic sophistry. There is not a lot of social mobility in the South. I’m from Alabama originally, and live in California now. These two may as well be completely different countries. Their access to information is different, as are the culture, and opportunities for the average person. The average Californian is making over double what the average is in the Southeast. I’ve never been, but from what I do know, the difference between CA and the Southeast is maybe like Germany and Hungary. The base GDP numbers of CA are skewed a bit by how much rural area there is and how population is distributed. In Southern California, life in the suburbs requires around $120k per year to own a low end home and pay the bills. In the same class of suburbs in Atlanta Georgia (largest Southeastern city), you need between $60k-$75k for the same home and lifestyle. The primary driver of this cost is simply employment opportunities.
The Southeastern USA is our primary backwards ignorant backwater region where people cling to radicalized religion and are deeply conservative due to isolationist ideologies. These people hate everything unfamiliar and different both regionally and abroad. They can barely read as a skill, never read for recreation or self growth, and only ever work and watch whatever garbage is on Fox on the TV.
The African American community can be just as bad about harboring racism too. I went to a University prep highschool that was 90% black and was a special institution designed to help uplift the black community. Of course it was a largely privately funded “magnet school” because Republicans never fund such programs. I experienced many racists in school as one of the few white students. Most of my friends were black. I dated a black girl too, not that it mattered to me. It is complicated, but in general the black community is deeply traumatized. It is largely due to ongoing incompetent mismanagement. Incompetent government is good business for the ultra rich, and so they fund it, while the uneducated elements of society are not smart enough to see the big picture and vote for change.
The USA is actually a pretty shitty place for anyone of lower class. Things like immigration are harped on because it perpetuates the delusion that everyone wants to be here when that is not really the case unless you’re in a hell hole like Venezuela.
The fuck are you talking about…have you ever been to the Southeast? Segregated it is not. The southeast is probably one of the least segregated parts of the usa.
Could you elaborate on this comment? Seems like the person before you went to a mostly black school/college and so has experienced being part of a segregated society/community. Are there areas that are less segregated or not at all? For context I am from the UK, where we have some integration but still quite high levels of segregation; I live in the southeast, in an area which is over 95pc white British, but there are other areas with much higher populations of other races/nationalities (Bradford, in the north midlands, is around 25pc Pakistani, and only a little over 50pc white British).
Did you/do you live in an area that isn’t or doesn’t feel segregated?
I grew up and live still in what’s considered the south. I have also lived up north. The south was bad during jim crow and the forced segregation. After the gov put a stop to that shit, the south desegregated to a point that it is heavily mixed now. HBS (historical black schools) exist but they’re not some segregated deal, it’s more for the history side and scholarships for people who can’t afford the school. Yes there are areas that are more black or white, but this has nothing to do with some sort of force segregation. I went to school in a rural area, I am a minority and played football on a heavily mixed team. Coaches where black/white/latino. My teachers were black and white, it was a completely normal thing growing up. Contrast that with my wife who is from the EU…she saw her first black person when she immigrated here to the USA when she was a kid. As I said before, the south was very segregated but that was 70+ years ago now. The forced integration by the gov. helped everyone to drop the black vs white here in the south. Is there still racism here? Sure, where isn’t there racism? But it’s nowhere near what some people seem to think it is.
That is such an odd statement, or maybe Florida is an outlier? On my block there is a mix of people, I went to schools that were forcefully integrated, the friend groups of my children are diverse. I grew up with friends who were a mix too. There were certainly cliques and self-segregating but not everyone, and now it’s even less frequent.
My ex, who came down here from Michigan, said that he went to “the white school” up north, that in his city the schools ended up segregated because they were neighborhood schools and the neighborhoods were segregated. So even in his high school he said there were 2 black kids and a few Indian and 99.5 % white kids. He was so uncomfortable down here because we are all mixed and he ended up so racist.
I haven’t lived up north but my experience with the northerners who move down here supports this, they all come from more homogeneous backgrounds than those of us who grew up here. They all think they aren’t racist until they live in this more heterogenous environment.
Yeah Florida spans some interesting exceptions. The Southeast is more a reference to the old Plantation South. The panhandle is, or thirty years ago-used to be, dominated by the same demographic. Or rather, dominated by the vacationing youth of the group. The cities of the peninsula are each quite different. Naples and Saint Augustine had something that felt like a segregated whites-only community feel. I’ve heard similar racist stereotypes of Hispanics and Cubans in Miami and Orlando. However all of these do not seem to have the generationally entrenched feel and tension of places like Kentucky, Tennessee, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Eastern Texas. I’ve only spent a few weeks total in each of those cities within Florida mostly in my childhood and early teens, so my perception is only so deep.
Personally, I miss the unique black cultural community I grew up with mostly around Chattanooga and Huntsville. There was this collective togetherness that I experienced, with lots of potlucks and lively gregarious people that brought out the best in others, and complemented my introverted nature without feeling intrusive. I felt like the accepted outsider that was welcomed to exist on my terms, and maybe even appreciated.
The one time I spend a week exploring the Keys, I felt like I was in a really openly accepting area and never encountered racism.
I traveled with my old man during my summers in highschool and then for a year after. He worked on industrial controls installations where we’d go stay in an area for 2-3 weeks at a time. I’ve actually been to a lot of places and stayed there in unique ways but still hotel life, just not full tourist like experiences. Plus fam vacationed in Florida and I have fam in Orlando.
E: people that down vote instead of replying–please block me entirely. I do not value you or wish to interact with you at all under any circumstances. I really don’t care who you are or what interactions we have had in the past. I find the rudeness adolescent, incompetent, childish, immoral, destructive, egomaniacal, and toxic. You have an impact on my mental health as someone in social isolation from physical disability, and I despise you for doing that. Being anonymously negative to a stranger in this way is psychotic behavior.
I can vouch for the segregated aspects of the south East. As someone who lives in the north east, I went vacationing to Florida for 2 months back in August, and the entire mentality between anyone who was not white was a drastic whiplash compared to the minor instances that are seen in the north.
unfortunately the ideology is so ingrained into normal living culture, that when I confronted my family who I saw doing it as well they didn’t even realize they were doing it and in most cases couldn’t seperate capability from the color of the person’s skin. It’s just something that they did. Not right but when everyone around you has the same ideology you tend to get blinded by it.
Being said it’s not like it used to be, it’s not like it’s actually written down like it used to be with color/white bathrooms and such, but that doesn’t stop psychological discrimination and prejudice.
I even got gawked at for talking to a groundskeeper when I was going for a walk, it was so unreal.
Very interesting read, gives a lot of perspective. Thanks!
OP: tell us your opinions about the Roma (aka - Gypsies).
Like I said this is not what this was meant to be for. I was looking for some educated explanations of the matter from an objective/scientific perspective to also widen my horizon on the matter. I don’t want a bate or finger pointing here.
That’s the point though. What’s an educated explanation for why it exists in Germany as well? Or France. Or Britain.
It’s because many people are insular and afraid and need someone to blame everything on.
I’m not trying to blame anyone here. Just want to understand including understanding my own country of course.
Sorry, how is this a science related question?
I thought this can be seen as social science and I was looking for a more scientific tone instead of subjective “opinions”. Which would be a better community to post this in?
I think it’s fine here. If something like !asksociology@mander.xyz existed, that would be more appropriate, but I think askscience is fine, given the relatively small size of Lemmy.
that was kinda my thinking, maybe this is a good place for social science questions still
Ah, I get that - wanting an empirical answer rather than speculation is totally understandable, especially when the question is about something people have a tendency to speculate about already.
I didn’t mean by my question to say you shouldn’t post here by the way; maybe next time specifying that you wanted answers with an empirical basis might have helped contextualize the post - I was worried you might have meant to post in a different community, for example.
Yeah that’s what I was aiming for, probably should’ve specified that empirical part more. I was kinda expecting this to be expected in this sub (I edited that into the disclaimer part now)
All these Americans are so fucking offended lmfao
Hey Americans:
Was Germany built on slavery and genocide like America was?
Does Germany still have slavery like America does?
Yes.
Yes.
Locking because the discussion isn’t consistent with community rules.
The difference is that, in World War 2, Germany was reduced to rubble and a significant fraction of its population was killed off because of the direction that its society took. This forced it to take a really long and hard look at itself and figure out what it could do to make sure that this never happened again.
By contrast, the U.S. has never been put in an equivalent position. The bloodiest war in our history was actually the U.S. Civil War in the 1860’s over slavery (and some other things, but mostly slavery). Although the anti-slavery North in that war won and was able to successfully end slavery in the entire country, racism itself was a whole separate issue, and (simplifying the history a bit) it continued to exist formally as a less extreme government-backed institution until the mid-20th century. (An example of this were the “separate but equal” schools that segregated black children from white children and were very much not equal.)
Of course, this only changed the law of the land, not hearts and minds. Education is very local, so there is no central authority which makes decisions about these things, and people regardless have the option of sending their children to private (often religious) schools, or even to home-school them. Furthermore, unlike many countries, we take freedom of belief extremely seriously, and additionally we extend this to a near-absolute freedom for parents to teach whatever things they want to their children to believe. The U.S. stance is essentially that we might not like the values that our neighbor is teaching our children, but we like the idea of the government telling us what values we are required to teach to our children even less, and this is essentially because our country was founded on a fundamental distrust of government and this general attitude has propagated down the generations.
So, what would it take for the entire country–and remember that this is a huge and incredibly diverse country–to get together and decide that we really need to, collectively, put aside our own individual opinions of what our values should be and what we should be teaching our children and refashion our entire society around a new collectively held set of values? That is asking a lot of people, so probably the most likely way that would get done is if fascism takes over our country and drives us to start a war that results in the entire country being reduced to rubble and a significant fraction of our population being killed off. This would force us to really take a long and hard look at ourselves and figure out what we could do to make sure that this never happened again.
(Except that now that nuclear weapons exist, “rubble” takes on a new meaning, so that rebuilding part may not get a chance to happen…)
I’m totally aware that there are still many racist people and even neo Nazis in Germany
This is what you need to focus on
Of course it’s important to focus on that but I think they are very few (I don’t know one personally). In every day life we don’t make a thing about where someone is from and we take many refugees.
I think you need to inform yourself of your own country. The AfD is on 19% and already the 2nd largest party. They are a racist party and full of Putinites too. You have such a massive problem with racism in Germany, that it is astounding to see you here asking your protectors - the Americans - why they have racism.
