In case you don’t know, they explicitly use the term socialist to describe the Federation economy in SNW. I was wondering if ppl liked or hated it? I like it personally since it’s not a dodge like “new world economy”
As I am not American I grew up with socialism being a positive connotation in day to day culture, so much so it’s wild to me that this needed to be veiled in Trek’s past. Star Trek should be as explicit as possible with this. “Hey, you want Utopia? This is how you earn it!”
Where are you if I may ask? And I think it may have been a dictate of Gene Roddenberry to not name which economic system won out, which is kind of a copout. But yeah it’s refreshing to see it called what it is finally
Gene Roddenberry was a Maoist. Pretty sure this was a studio thing, not a Gene thing.
He was a Maoist?
According to his wife Majel, yes.
Where did you read this?
I admit I’m having trouble finding any transcript of the primary source. It’s supposedly an answer she gave during a local convention and it’s been repeated by enough websites citing each other that I don’t know which one was the original.
I’ll keep trying to find it, though.
Yeah I doubt it personally, it doesn’t seem to match anything ever reflected in Star Trek. But if you find it, do tell me!
British. Specifically Scottish.
Ah yeah socialism I guess is a less dirty word in those parts.
I think so, the federation is often seen and portrayed as close as you can get to a utopia (Since it’s practically impossible to achieve a “true” utopia). They still have issues, make mistakes and wrong calls, and even some (albeit greatly reduced) crime.
So having more positive association/references for the term socialist, a term that most general people can have a connection with, cant hurt.
And it just seems accurate, at least with definitions of socialism I’ve read and studied
Yes, although I do find that the penal labor in the Federation prisons are a bit concerning for a utopia
Ironically The Orville did that better by saying there are no prisons anymore in the Planetary Union.
It’s not really socialist. Socialism is an economic model that involves taxing the rich and redistribution of wealth to the working class through welfare programs.
But in ST, there is no economy, no taxes, no rich people, no wealth, no working class. The only thing from that definition that they do have is welfare, but it’s a completely different form of it.
ST is a magical post-scarcity utopia. Any economist would tell you that economics is first and foremost the study of how to allocate scarce resources. In a post-scarcity society, the whole concept of economics breaks down. Replicators break everything we know about economics. Everyone can get everything they need and it costs them nothing but electricity (which they conveniently can generate for basically no cost).
I thought socialism was social ownership, not welfare programs that exist under capitalism.
You’re right.
There’s a bad habit of calling socialists the countries that should be called something like"capitalist but a bit to the left"
Socialism isn’t a binary yes/no thing. It’s an economic ideology that can be realized in many different ways
Social ownership of what? Resources? Means of production? Neither of those means anything when replicators are a thing.
There are a million different definitions of socialism depending on who you ask. I gave one above but I’m not claiming it’s the only one. However it is ultimately an economic model, and it doesn’t make sense to apply it in a world where economics is meaningless because the laws of thermodynamics have been broken.
Resources and means of production are both things in the Federation. We see mining operations and manufacturing facilities well into the 24th century.
And with only one unfortunate exception that I can think of, matter replication is treated as a net energy loss - it isn’t free.
And with only one unfortunate exception that I can think of, matter replication is treated as a net energy loss - it isn’t free.
Well sure, it’s energy negative, but they also have basically free energy. We see in Voyager that as soon as they are cut off from that free energy, they regress to a market-based economy by like the third episode of the show. Doesn’t seem very socialist to me.
as they are cut off from that free energy
They were “cut off” because they no longer had access to the supply lines that provided them with fuel. That’s not “free energy” at all.
Yeah that’s my point. As soon as they no longer had access to the magical impossible logistics network of virtually free energy, they immediately regressed to capitalism with a side order of martial law.
I don’t think what they were doing in the Delta Quadrant would meet many (good) definitions of “capitalism.”
And it’s difficult to say how “martial law” could be imposed on a command structure that was already militaristic.
Then explain what the Orion syndicate does for a living. Or how can ferengi pursue profit. Or how captains owned private transport ships and need to take things from one place to the other.
There’s always people who want more than they have, and know who’s going to provide them that.
Because the writers recognized that too many story tropes would be entirely unreasonable in a post scarcity world and so wrote in a bunch of stuff that really makes no sense if you think about it too hard. Like why would someone pay for a drink at Quark’s when every residence on DS9 has a replicator? Because the writers wanted DS9 to be a frontier town and a frontier town needs a saloon.
Also to be clear, everything I was saying in my above comments was primarily in relation to the Federation. I recognize there are parts of the galaxy where replicators are not common.
Like why would someone pay for a drink at Quark’s when every residence on DS9 has a replicator?
Because the scarce resource at Quark’s isn’t the food or drinks, it’s the atmosphere and the experience, i.e things the replicator cannot provide. Quark controls the holodecks too, but even if he didn’t the scarce resource would be authentic (not replicated) food and experiences. It’s been shown pretty regularly on the shows that some people prefer non-replicated food, non-synthohol drinks, and real people. It doesn’t really matter in that context if those are technically indistinguishable from the real thing (but even in canon there is a measureable difference between them and some things the replicators can’t do).
I don’t really believe there could ever be a post-scarcity world in which we don’t create new scarcities to demand.
Hot take: The Expanse (mostly referring to the books here) handled a post-scarcity technocracy much more believably.
Again, the Ferengi are a bad example since they aren’t part of the federation. But my point was simply that this stuff wasn’t thought through. Why do the Ferengi exist? Because the writers wanted some capitalists to use as a contrast to the Federation.
I firmly believe that ST’s worldbuilding mostly handwaves the questions of economics and scarcity, at least within the Federation. The writers didn’t want to come up with good reasons for these things that actually make sense when you think about them.
It’s a great franchise, but we shouldn’t try to apply real-world economic ideas to it when that was so clearly not at the front of the writers minds when they created it.
You’re all true until allocating scarce resources. These days economy is how to make scarce something that isn’t in order to profit from it. See copyrights and patents. In our society a replicator would be the property of a company and you would need to pay it to be allowed to use it.
Yeah that’s the cynical and IMO more realistic take. I’m mostly just taking the world presented in the show at face value. It’s not realistic at all.
But even then, it wouldn’t be the replicators that are scarce, it would be the software. Because in theory if someone is charging you to use their replicator, you could just pay to print out the parts for your own replicator, and then replicate yourself ten more replicators. What would prevent this? Proprietary software.
Exactly. In some way the software is a lock that ensure the property of the machine stays to the company that built it.
It bugs me that you’re being downvoted because you’re correct that modern descriptors don’t apply.
Yeah I’m not out here saying socialism is bad. I consider myself quite left of center. But it’s like… they have literal magic. The words we use to describe different ways of allocating resources do not apply to them. They don’t have an economy. An economy is a system of logistics and trade for moving scarce things to the people who want those things. Everyone and their dog has a transporter and a replicator. Logistics and resource allocation are irrelevant. Why would anyone trade anything for anything else if they have infinite everything?
