I’ve been trying to find a good Marxist instance, but Lemmygrad and Hexbear are widely hated. Why is that? Are there any good leftist instances?
They are hardline Marxist-Leninists, something that is very rare in the western world even amongst those who identify as leftist or socialist. If their views make you uncomfortable, then you’re not a ML, which is okay.
Left-wing politics is a very broad spectrum, and a lot of Lemmy users lean towards the more moderate end which brings them into conflict with the more radical communities that are Lemmygrad and Hexbear.
That’s all there is to it.
I would also add that there are a lot of them on Lemmy, which is even more uncommon.
And they’re not artificially suppressed like they are on other social media platforms.
*depending on what instance you’re on
They are defederated from a lot of instances, from their own side or the other’s (my instance is defederated from LG and HB defederated itself from my instance)
A correction: Lemmygrad and Hexbear are two different instances, and it’s an oversimplification to lump them in together. Lemmygrad does not defederate from any real instance, we have possibly one of the smallest block lists of any bigger instances.
That’s all there is to it.
That’s it? Nothing about their notoriety for posting pictures of pigs pooping on their balls as part of their lively defense of MLism?
That’s not a defense, per se; that’s them telling you you are no longer worth the dialogue. You crackers aren’t worth debating.
Lemmygrad and Hexbear aren’t “leftist” in the confused sense that Americans usually mean “leftist.” They’re actually leftist in the original sense, meaning that they want to abolish private ownership of the means of production. To the extent they’re “widely hated,” it’s largely because the Anglosphere has been indoctrinated against real, actual socialism their entire lives.
More often than not, when Americans say leftist they really mean left-liberalism a la Bernie Sanders, which is really center-left at most, and not actually leftist in the original sense, a sense which Americans have forgotten thanks to two Red Scares and the first Cold War.
True, but leninists are not leftist in any significant sense either. They are more authoritarian/ totalitarian than they are left or right.
Totalitarian is an invented term, and every single government and governance structure is “authoritarian” by definition. These words mean hubris, and are dogwhistles for anti-communists.
If Leninists are not leftists according to you, you might as well start to claim Hitler was not a fascist, and Bush, Obama, Clinton, Churchill were all great homies.
Nah, I don’t think I will compromise. Hitler was a totalitarian dictator, and Lenin horseshoed himself all the way around to become the same. None of their American contemporaries then or since are comparable. Waving your hand and saying everything is authoritarian ignores how many people they both killed to maintain that authority, the vast majority being working class. Leninists are not leftists, they are just bloodthirsty pigs.
That’s not the part people have an issue with, the part where their users deny genocides, call everyone that has a less extreme left opinion of politics Nazis, end up being so “anti-racism” that they’re racists themselves and take all critics as personal attacks, that’s what people have an issue with.
Wild how much footage is coming out of Gaza right now showing an actual ongoing genocide, yet Zionists and their water-carriers will harp on and on about how Israel is merely defending itself.
Nothing of the sort from Xinjiang. At all.
I’d like to see ONE verifiable image or video depicting this supposed Uyghur genocide we’re denying. ONE. Apparently it’s one of the worst human atrocities occuring right now. One of the worst in HISTORY.
So… show me a single picture. Fetish porn doesn’t count. Where are the dead bodies? Where are these supposed mass graves?
Love to break it to ya, they don’t fucking exist and they never did. You’ve been lied to.
The US state department lawyers and the British House of Lords have evidence. That’s why they’re pursuing convictions of the Chinese leaders involved. No, wait— sorry, I misremembered. They both concluded there is insufficient evidence.
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So you agree that there is a strong argument for Russia seeking genocide in Ukraine as well, right?
Israel has killed more civilians (mostly children and women) in a month of war than Russia has killed in almost two years. The Russians actually target almost exclusively military infrastructure, they have preserved electrical grids, water stations, communications infrastructure, etc… Not because they are “good guys”, obviously, but it’s a part of their strategy. But it shows genocide is not a part of this strategy.
The article was written by Timofei Sergeitsev, a Russian “philosopher” with no direct link to the government. The article in the website you linked was written in early April 2022, very early after the war, when no one knew what to expect. It was claimed it was “proof” the Russians was intending to genocide Ukrainians.
More than a year later, have we seen anything like it? Have we seen active actions from the Russians to consistently destroy civilian buildings and systematically cause civilian casualties on purpose? I at least haven’t, unless we are talking about a completely different war which I’m not aware. I don’t excuse the Russians of anything, I’m sticking with the facts. The Russians have been very careful not to cause non-military casualties, which is extremely odd for a genocidal regime.
So, in short, it’s your article written by a guy with no links to the government vs. what the actual war itself shows in practice. I prefer to see what practice shows us.
Feels like ad hominem. The point is that you are unwilling to even engage with the idea that Russia seeks to eliminate Ukrainian identity, an idea which is reported by a number of primary Russian sources in a variety of media. Putin himself expresses frequent open skepticism of Ukrainian nationality. Not to even mention the internationally recognized mass deportation of children.
I won’t argue that Israel isn’t an apartheid state engaging in collective punishment. Meanwhile you will turn yourself in circles to defend Russian aggression, and for the life of me I can figure out what that has to do with liberating workers. It just feels less like intellectual honesty and more like campism. But then somehow I’m the brainwashed goon for actually attempting to maintain something resembling ideological consistency.
Written by Timofei Sergeitsev in RIA Novosti, the rhetoric in the editorial…
Oh so it’s not a “Kremlin paper”, it’s just what some guy thinks. If there are “no more Nazis in Ukraine than anywhere else” then there are no more nazis in Russia than anywhere else 🙃
their users deny genocides
If you are referring to the Xinjiang issue, then it just reaffirms what @davel@lemmy.ml just said:
it’s largely because the Anglosphere has been indoctrinated against real, actual socialism their entire lives
Because the “Uyghur genocide” in Xinjiang is another example of propaganda. Or do you really think the West cares about Muslims and want to protect their “freedom”?
call everyone that has a less extreme left opinion of politics Nazis
I don’t see anyone in Lemmygrad calling other people “Nazis” because they disagree with someone in a discussion. I usually see them criticizing others as “liberals.” This is either a misrepresentation of leftists in general, very common among conservatives, or you are frequently being called a Nazi. I don’t know, maybe that’s on you? 🤔
end up being so “anti-racism” that they’re racists themselves and take all critics as personal attacks
That’s so specific you should give at least one example of this. We have very strict moderation against any bigotry, so I challenge you to link any “racist” attitude or comment you have seen in Lemmygrad. I will give you 24 hours, and if you don’t reply with an example, I will edit this comment saying you chickened out.
EDIT: They chickened out, as expected.
And 24 hours have passed with no evidence! No sources! No citations! Typical unsubstantiated settler horseshit.
Another repeating problem is the vast generalizations. Treating “the West” as if they’re all Bush Jr. or Reagan.
If “the west” isn’t voting for Bush or Reagan then they’re hailing people like Obama, who destroyed Libya and brought back open air slave markets - or Clinton who destroyed Belgrade and undermined social protections for workers. To think you are somehow better because you support(ed?) Genocide Joe is just delusion.
I’m not even American yet still in “the west”, and refuse to be identified by American subpar ways of determining people in power.
Americrackers and their vassals
being in the west may as well mean you’re american, they tell you what to do, try saying no.
What’s your view on Trump?
Just as bad as Biden, Obama, Bush Jr., and both Clintons; deserving of the same International Criminal Court convictions as the five I just listed.
Fun fact: did you know the ICC has only ever prosecuted African nationals since its inception in 2002?
Critical support to Donald Trump in his mission to undermine the amerikkkan state, bless him for not hiring people to the state department and congratulations for his negotiation of capitulation to the Taliban
Ok, Stalin
The West ≠ Western citizens
North Atlantic imperialist countries is what we refer as “the West”. They have shared interests and in terms of foreign policy act almost in unison, so much so that a single term to describe North American and Western European countries is not a generalization, it’s quite appropriate actually.
Don’t act Reagan-adjacent and you won’t get pilloried for it. Considering you wanna throw around allegations of genocide denial with zero investigation and zero evidence, you sound less Reagan and a lot more Bush-- and subsequently deserve no right to serious speech.
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International CommunityTM
Did you mean “the Crackerverse™”?
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This is the common refrain. It’s easier to believe we’re bots or shills than believe socialists walk among us
Given the comment you’re just responding to, that’s a level of not-self-reflection that’s usually reserved to /r/selfawarewolfs or the like.
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end up being so “anti-racism” that they’re racists themselves
lmao shut up
; settler tears are abundant in supply and abysmally low in both demand and qualityI love you and how you take the time to call out all of these comments.
I’m on break and I don’t celebrate Amerikan Genocide Day; I got nothin but time today homie
Do you always have to post a picture in order to post a message? Is that like your version of a talking stick? Or a text message signature?
Can you point to genocide denial before you make sweeping accusations?
Nope. Comment threads don’t work like that.
Okay so no evidence Hexbear or Lemmygrad have denied genocides?
Oh there certainly is. You gotta read those comment threads yourself.
It’s popped up in this one, too. It’s really curious how you can read and write enough to answer here, but not see that.
I’m not asking to see the comments for myself, I’m asking if you can point to evidence of this happening; it’s not the same question.
I understand. You refuse to accept something that is fairly obvious for many Lemmy users and want to put a burden of proof on me, and because I don’t want to take on additional work for someone I neither know nor agree with, you are happy to keep your opinion, as am I to keep mine.
end up being so “anti-racism” that they’re racists themselves
anyone complaining about “reverse racism” or “anti white racism” is a complete joke. like boo fucking hoo, someone called you a cracker on the internet, get over it.
That isn’t what they are talking about, hopefully. But if it is, I agree, a hearty “lol” is in order.
they replied confirming to me that what they were complaining about was in fact racism against white people, given that it seems to be a pretty common bit on lemmygrad to call people crackers and compare them to that kid who went onto fox news to complain about his face being photoshopped onto a picture of a ritz cracker by left wing students at his university that seems to be what they were complaining about
Bad interpretation is bad
Racism has a definition that’s fairly easy to understand and yes people of all colors can be victims and even people of the same skin colour can be racists against one another because racism isn’t necessarily about the color of your skin, it can be about your ethnicity.
Racism:
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.Ethnicity:
the quality or fact of belonging to a population group or subgroup made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent.If you had taken a crowd of anonymous Germans all dressed the same in 1935, how would you have told who was a Jew and who wasn’t? You wouldn’t have been able to because they were all just white people.
What do you call it when 100 years ago in a first world white country the population that speaks one official language has an infant mortality rate comparable to that of colonial Africa while the population that speaks the other official language and lives in the same cities has an infant mortality rate comparable to any other first world nation?
Was the Rwanda genocide not racism because it was two groups with the same skin colour? What about what happened in Yugoslavia?
My white friend who went to China to study had to sit through multiple explanations by many Chinese student of the levels of intelligence being affected by skin colour and ethnicity and guess what, whites weren’t at the top! “All white people are dumber than Indians who are dumber than Koreans who are dumber than Chinese.” Are you telling me that isn’t racism against white people (and anyone that isn’t Chinese)? Because I sure would hope someone would call me a racist if I was saying the same thing about people of another skin colour or ethnicity!
racism against white people
lmao shut up
you see i have pulled out the dictionary definition of racism and also an annecdote about how a country colonized by white people for centuries can actually be racist against my white friend for calling him a ‘cracker’, defeating your arguement
Racism is not easy to understand and you’re definitely not going to get a clear understanding of it from reading a definition especially if you’re white. I suggest you read some books. Good heavens maybe your racist Chinese friend is right.
Edit I hear this is a good book
White fragility by Robin diangelo
Racism against white people would be a problem if white people were not the perpetrators of racism against the entire world for centuries, whilst looting and genociding and dehumanising other races. Except the fact that they have and do it in unison and cheerfully, in the name of “white man’s burden” bullshit. And people like you defend it and carry water for them.
You know which country “inspired” and taught racial segregation policies to Hitler? USA. The country that defected Europeans colonised by genociding Native American indigenous people. I swear this whole shit has to be some kind of grand project, because Albert Pike (most famous Freemason leader) spoke of 3 world wars that West invents, 2 of which have been exactly invented the way he described, and he uses terms like Nazism, a term or ideology which did not even exist in 1891.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m581aW5AH4M
The game is over for Anglos.
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Racism is just a Capitalist distraction.
Ok shitlord, please deny racism exists
So you’re saying that what the Jews were victim of during WW2 wasn’t racism? Because they certainly were white!
How about the Irish? The deportation of Acadians? French Canadians seeing their language becoming illegal to teach in Manitoba? The Yugoslav wars?
By your logic it’s also impossible to be racist towards Chinese and Japanese because man, let me tell you, they can be racist as fuck towards everyone else and they were the ones in power on their side of the world for centuries!
Racism has a definition and it’s a bad thing no matter who the victim is.
European Jews were not considered white before and during WW2. Whiteness has always changed with whatever we needed it to be for political reasons. The Irish were not considered white. In South Africa during Apartheid, a Japanese national was forbidden by a bus driver from entering a whites-only bus because the driver thought he was Chinese. The man sued and won against the driver as the Japanese were considered white and allowed to board segregated buses.
Cry more, cracker. You crack me up with that hubris of yours.
It’s funny how it’s always the same whenever you’re confronted to arguments. You just insult the other party and leave the scene like you were a hero.
Also very funny you should call me a cracker when you don’t know what’s my origin, you just assume I’m white because you would be unable to accept that someone not white could realize that racism goes all ways.
itjustworks once again being a cryptofash instance.
sh.itsfulla.nazis being a nazi bar? Perish the thought!
Thanks for providing an example of what I was talking about :)
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Extremely accurate
I literally netted a 2 week sitewide-ban on one of my alts in this thread for a softer worded take than this
Don’t know how I managed to escape consequences so far 😂
The “Uyghur genocide” is bullshit Atlanticist propaganda, and English-language Wikipedia is basically NATOpedia in its slant on the topic, so yes we will deny it. It’s a product of the new Cold War propaganda campaign against China.
I get why people would believe it like a decade ago when the facts were still kind of up in the air, but now even west media is like “yeaaah we looked into it and all of it is complete and utter bullshit” and yet you still have people confidently going on like it’s still a thing.
Eventually you have to come to the grips with the fact that the only reason you believe in the Uyghur genocide is because you’re racist.
Atlanticist crackers are exactly why I’m a third-worldist; I genuinely care more about my community’s diaspora than I’d ever care about these genocidal neocolonist crackers
Here are some properties of any conspiracy theory worth it’s name:
- Closed Ideological Systems: They provide an all-encompassing explanation for various events or states, with everything fitting into their worldview.
- Immunity to Facts: Any contrary evidence is dismissed as false or considered part of the conspiracy.
- Enemy Construction: They tend to draw a clear line between “us” (those who “know the truth”) and “them” (the supposed conspirators).
- Adaptability: Conspiracy narratives can change and incorporate new “evidence” or events to maintain their credibility.
It matches for QAnon and the MAGA crowd as well as the lemmygrad crowd.
not having the self awareness to realize this applies to anti-communists, not communists/MLs as they use scientific reasoning.
Just to understand what you are saying, do you say communists apply scientific reasoning?
Yes, the foundation of most communists reasoning is based on sociology.
That’s very abstract and doesn’t mean much. With as many words you can say capitalism is based on scientific reasoning.
Yes, Marxism is based on a scientific methodology called historical materialism. It’s too complex to be explained in a single comment, but it has an internal logic and methodology which proposes to analyze social systems in general, but especially capitalist societies in particular.
You can’t use the scientific method used in the natural sciences because you can’t put a society in a lab to study it. Social sciences require a methodology apart from the natural sciences, and Marxism has proposed historical materialism, which is very consistent and coherent approach, based on the Hegelian dialectical logic with materialism as a principle.
How ironic! Let’s see if it fits for the “genocide” position:
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Closed Ideological Systems: Whether those who defend the idea of “genocide” in Xinjiang are aware or not, the sources used to claim there is a genocide in Xinjiang is usually Adrian Zenz, a German white supremacist and Christian fundamentalist who claimed in his book Worthy to Escape that “other belief systems are ultimately inspired by Satan” and justifies “eternal punishment” for those who refuse to believe in Jesus.
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Immunity to Facts: Every time one tries to argue that Xinjiang faced a policy of de-radicalization of terrorists who led many attacks against the province, those who claim there is a genocide there say they are “genocide deniers.” I’ve even seen people saying those who don’t agree with the “genocide” position are paid by the Chinese.
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Enemy Construction: I can’t even count the number of times people have called those who don’t promote the “genocide” propaganda “tankies” and dismissing them instead of engaging with arguments.
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Adaptability: The “genocide” propaganda claims there is a genocide there, and then when presented with the fact that even those who were put in the re-education facilities were allowed to express their culture with dances and art on video, the “genocide” conspiracy theorists say that it was a fake, an act, that it was a spectacle organized by the Chinese to hide the genocide. Just to give you an example.
It does match the “genocide” position very well. I’ve yet to see a genocide which preserves the language, the culture, the customs and the places of worship of a people. Another thing, notice the reaction of Muslim countries to the actual genocide being perpetrated by Israel. They are firmly condemning it through all channels. In contrast, the policies of de-radicalization by the Chinese were unanimously well-received by Muslim countries.
Another thing, notice the reaction of Muslim countries to the actual genocide being perpetrated by Israel. They are firmly condemning it through all channels. In contrast, the policies of de-radicalization by the Chinese were unanimously well-received by Muslim countries.
Very generous of you to assume that many of these folk believe Muslims and Arabs are human beings capable of forming their own opinions and international policy. The opinions of actual Muslims are similarly handwaved akin to any communist’s opinion.
These states’ international defense of China’s de-radicalization program is stated to merely be because they are money-hungry opportunists, buddying up with China while ignoring a politically and economically inconvenient genocide. 🙄 How… adaptable this narrative is.
The seemingly unending wave of videos of Uyghurs in China recording themselves in their homes and making it clear they are not undergoing genocide have to be ignored. In fact, they have to be deleted by the platforms hosting them. How utterly immune to facts this narrative is.
If these countries care about Palestine, oh… I don’t know. Russia is making them care. Iran, maybe? Maybe North Korea or China are forcing these Muslims to hate Israel. Who else are we being directed to hate right now? Afghanistan? Just throw a dart at the “Axis of Evil” board and pick an “uncivilized” nation. It’s their fault. Why not?
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That’s a liberal with no framework. No one denies genocides (pro-tip just because the western media says it’s a genocide doesn’t make it a genocide.) Being so anti-racist you are the real racist is the Liberal Democratic party who elected a hard-core segregationist as president, not a Marxist Leninist. No one except people like you give a fuck about personal attacks. lol.
If a communist isn’t hated by the capitalist establishment, he isn’t a real communist. (I do not imply that being hated by the establishment alone qualifies you to be a communist)
And the remainder of lemmy is the capitalist establishment?
Nah, you’re wannabes who will never hold enough capital to count, which is why we slag you when you dig in your heels in the first place. There’s nothing more simultaneously sad or funny than ‘temporarily embarrassed’ capitalists with no capital; especially when you haven’t even bothered scrubbing the Oxford polish off your lips before fixing them to talk to us. You are footsoldiers of chauvinist racism, colonial genocide, and climate apocalypse, and you will be the death of all of us.
With all that in mind, what makes you think you or yours are owed any respectful dialogue?
- Full of insults and yet- asks others how they think they’re owned respectful dialogue.
THIS Is the perfect example of the children in Lemmygrad and Hexbear.
Political views aside, the way they promote their political views is unappealing.
Look through any of their popular threads. Everyone piles on any comment which doesn’t align perfectly with the agreed perspective.
Lemmygrad isn’t “hated” by most of the wider lemmyverse. There’s just a loud and obnoxious minority of people that will rail and rant about lemmygrad. They loudly rant about lemmygrad because they aren’t used to seeing their worldview get challenged and by its very nature as a radical leftist community, lemmygrad is a challenge to the typical background liberal perspective.
It’s no surprise we all end up seeing a lot of threads about “those mean tankies at lemmygrad” (and hexbear too) made by people who can’t take their worldview getting questioned, or even shown to be flawed, or just not standing up to their own scrutiny, and who get mad when that happens. There are also of course people with ideological reasons to demonize leftwing politics and will spread shit for that reason alone. But overall, I don’t think most people care enough except to think “oh yeah that’s that instance with those radical lefties, they’re weird but they do make some great memes sometimes.”
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There are people who called the main lemmy.ml instance a community of tankies, so I’d take a lot of these claims with a grain of salt.
Hahahahahaha
I’m pretty left/lean socialist. The tankies that annoy me from those instances are pro authoritarian communists who say shit like “Stalin did nothing wrong” with no irony whatsoever. It’s not really about bickering over ideological purity past a certain point, some of that shit makes a good case for the horseshoe theory
“I’m as left as they come but I’m still going to throat the entire State Department patent leather shoe talm bout ‘authoritarians’ like that’s anything more than another white-folk-slur for brown leaders who deny them” you are a fucking joke
What’s a leftist stance you take?
There’s a difference between challenging other people’s opinions and calling them fascists or Nazis just because they’re not at the extreme left.
Even worse, in this very thread I’ve been called a fascist for the sole reason that my instance is sh.itjust.works, one of the bigger instances and one where your political opinion isn’t a criteria to subscribe (especially not when I subscribed, they didn’t even ask for an email!)
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It’s funny how fascists always leave out the part that actually gets them called a fascist, isn’t it?
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You must’ve done something to court those allegations. What’d you say? What’d you do? Who’d you align with geopolitically? I bet we’ll find an answer in at least one of those three.
Yeah, I only joined shitjust works because that’s where the cdda Lemmy is and that’s the first thing I used it for, didn’t even know people think it’s a political instance. Though I guess with the hexbears and lemmygrads everything’s political somehow. That’s why I generally avoid dealing with them anyway.
everything’s political somehow.
If somehow, everything isn’t political for you; that’s your sign that you might just be a settler. Just the act of going outside in a hwhite neighborhood is a political action for me with how many cop-caller Beckies I live around. Wish I had your sweet-assed life.
Generally, they aren’t marxists, they’re “tankies”. And even fairly extreme socialists tend to dislike that. That’s lemmygrad.
Hexbear is just filled with trolls that federated specifically to troll and disrupt the rest of lemmy in the name of their beliefs.
On either, you can find individuals that are perfectly cool to talk to. But it’s like rolling the dice where only snake eyes win. And, even when you win, you can’t be certain that it isn’t a long troll waiting to fuck with you because some of them do that too.
Thank you!
I believe you’ve answered your own question.
Lemmy isn’t Marxist-only. The majority of Lemmy users are what the more vocal Lemmygrad and Hexbear users deride as “libs.” As a thought experiment, imagine that you are one of us for a moment and then browse Local on one of those.
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I haven’t seen or maybe haven’t noticed much of lemmygrad. But hex bear has a culture of spamming the same handful of images, using them like punctuation in their posts. And they show up huge in my reader at least (I just found out they look small to them.) So it’s like you’re trying to have a discussion and someone comes parading through with like five crappy drawings that take up all the space. Also I don’t mind having Marxists around but they tend to want to steer every discussion toward it, regardless of its relevance. Can’t wait to be able to block the instance.
Marxism is relevant to everything through dialectics, which was synthesized by Hegel first. Also the emoji size is a quirk of Lemmy, all custom emojis take up their original size on other instances regardless of which instance it comes from.
Well at least now I got a taste of lemmygrad, lol
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Lemmygrad I can’t comment on. As far as I can tell they basically just talk politics and I’m not interested in microwaving my brain by obsessing about politics online. Haven’t seen them out in any of the threads I’ve been on.
Hexbear I’ve enjoyed honestly. They’ve got nice hobby communities and it’s all I’m here for. Quality of discussion is usually pretty good. My take on people hating Hexbear is people have made their personality getting mad about politics and Hexbear don’t share their views. People screaming “tankie!” just seemed deranged to me, literally who cares what a handful of nerds in the US think of China. Neither of you have any influence on what China does at all.
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tankie
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samee
Yes, it has nothing to do with their inability to follow other instances’ rules and constant need to “dunk” on “shit libs” mostly by posting the same image of a pig pooping on itself. /S
Such discourse. Much Praxis. So brave.
If this is your vibe normally I wouldn’t want to engage and would just post a troll image as well, it’s rancid.
They’re both good instances. People have been heavily propagandized to hate communists. You could make the kindest most welcoming space on the internet and if you put the label “communist” on it, it will be hated.
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Haven’t seen any lemmygrad users in a while, but honestly the vitriol towards Hexbear is overblown. They’re fine. Bit trolly, and they shitpost a lot, but it’s kinda fun.
Neoliberal McCarthyism good fascism okay communism bad
blue eyes blonde hair good democracy people everyone else bad ebil totalitarian
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