https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u01AbiCn_Nw mental outlaw video:
hi everyone, i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish but then i stumbled upon this near-totally modular laptop rhat starts out at above 1000 bucks. do you think the cheaper laptop in the long run is just a false economy and i should go for the framework or what? if you want to ask questions go ahead but im mainly concerned about the longterm financials (and how well it will keep up over time)
i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish
What are you hoping to do with it? I got a used Thinkpad T480 that was like new for €180 and added a couple of upgrades to it (1TB NVMe, 64GB RAM, Intel AX200 Wi-Fi card) that cost me €137, meaning a total of €317, and I’m very happy with the laptop right now, it’s very responsive with Arch Linux and an i3 desktop and I think this baby will be good for many years.
Seconding a used Thinkpad. They are plenty modular/repairable compared to other laptops. I’ve got an X270 and it’s a great little machine.
where do you find used thinkpads online?
I’ve bought about a dozen from friends and family.
Search on eBay.
Find a seller with many of the same model. These are tech contractors offloading the laptops they just replaced under some contract - you’ll get a laptop that’s been sitting in some managers drawer for the last 3 years.
Next go to the contractors own website, not ebay. See what stuff they have.
I usually email them and just try to express interest in buying 2 or more laptops, ask what peripherals they have - get a dock or something. Ask about RAM or SSD upgrades, things like that.
You’re helping them offload their second hand stuff, avoid ebay fees, not being a dick.
Amazon sells used thinkpads other than general age of the hardware love mine that I got for about $300
There are various ebay sellers who carry certified refurbished laptops with warranty included. You can also buy some directly from Lenovo.
Seconded, I have been very happy with my last 2 purchases of Acer refurbished laptops from the official Acer store on eBay.
Got mine on Ebay, and you usually have to be careful like with any purchase of a used item: ask for detailed photos if you can’t judge the state of the item from the photos that are there, ask questions about things that were left out in the description, look for sellers with very good ratings and look at their reviews, see if you can return etc…
Amazon also sells refurbished ones, but so far I’ve seen the best deals on Ebay.
EDIT: important, make sure the BIOS is unlocked.
Found it! surprised this wasn’t the top comment
there will always be a Thinkpad nerd to do the shilling in a laptops thread, just doing my job 😎
based and thinkpilled
whats so good about arch? is it faster?
due to the nature of arch and its rolling releases, it tends to get bleeding edge updates/features rather than having to wait for a major update to iron itself out then get rolled out. If you’re a gamer for example, if Valve fixes a bug in the gpu driver, then Arch would probably get it asap (especially given that Steam OS is arch based)
What’s good about it is that if you know what you’re doing you can install only what you need and keep your system small and tidy. Also, since it’s a rolling distro, updates become available really quick and sometimes some of the updates introduce optimizations (meaning more performance) or better power consumption. And finally of course Arch has also an amazing wiki, they have hands down the best Linux documentation along with Gentoo, and they even have a page about Thinkpads: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Laptop/Lenovo
It’s just another distro that has gained a following more because of some perceived superiority than any truly practical reason. If you’re new to Linux I wouldn’t recommend it.
bought a refurbished 5 year old Thinkpad via Amazon for $150. put linux on it, no regrets
I wanna do this and use it for my home assistant server.
How’d you find it on Amazon?
what should i look for when buying a thinkpad
A good general rule of thumb is to avoid the E and L series, and stick with the X, T or P series, or the X1 Carbons. Depending on your use case, choose one with the processor and display you want.
I have a T460 with linux on it that I use for work and it has been rock solid even when I spilled coffee on it.
I have an E560, I like it, but I’m not will versed enough to know why I shouldn’t. So why did I make a terrible decision? :P
Second hand ThinkPads are the way to go
Simple answer yes long answer maybe
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apple software locks?
I’m an Offical Apple phone repair tech. A lot of things stop working once you place new parts in, things that have even thrown me for a loop and made me think I did the repair wrong. I replaced a display, and the vibration and camera stopped working properly. I thought I damaged the haptic feedback motor (That I didn’t even remove) You have to sign into apple’s repair website, and ‘run a diagnostic’ in order to get the vibration function to work again after you swap a part on some models. They all do some weird shit.
Sometimes swapping a camera on a model will cause the camera in app to run at like 3 fps or Face ID will stop working until you validate the parts on their repair site. It’s shit.
In theory, you’re paying up front for their long-term loss by not driving conspicuous consumption with planned obsolescence. They lose out on at least 4x the cost of selling you entirely new devices every 5 years, and you get a computer that only requires a few hundred in repairs for the next 20 years.
In reality:
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new standards take hold all the time. Sorry, your laptop takes DDR7 RAM, everyone’s moved on to DDR10—which won’t cause a noticeable performance improvement, but it will give you FOMO because the numbers are bigger. So we’ve ceased manufacturing those old DDR7s; good luck with used DIMMs on ebay.
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Startups with amazing business models go under all the time. Sure, it may be “bad market strategy,” aka not being money-grubbing scrooges, and the resultant investor pull-out. It might be a lack of hype outside a niche market. It might be a hurricane. Too bad, ypur “lifetime” computer now has no one manufacturing parts. See also: what happens to early adopters of robotic prosthetics.
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Enshittification, plain and simple. That idealistic company that was going to defeat the ills of capitalism by beating it at its own game? Well now the investors want their money, and the shareholders are upset as their stocks plummet. Time to start cutting costs and fucking over the users! Suddenly we’re okay with child slavery and nonfree firmware because it doesn’t violate our core value of sustainable laptops probably. Have a subscription about it.
And the longer it lasts, the more likely one or more of the above is to happen.
If you don’t mind that and just want to “send a message,” then go ahead. The more viable (profitable) Framework is, the more likely it is others will follow suit.
If you’re really just worried about e-waste and sustainable tech, buy used and fix it up. We’re past the point of Moore’s law where you’re missing out on meaningful performance gains if your device is a few years old, and have you see what people will throw away just because the screen is cracked?
If it’s about ethical business models, support non-profits. They don’t have the same financial incentive to enshittify. (They just have their own ecosystem of ethical issues)
Or get two birds stoned at once by joining/starting a non-profit tech mutual aid network, where you help maintain and upgrade each others’ tech.
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framework is VERY worth it.
modular slots on the side mean you can choose your inputs and where they go.everything inside the laptop is easily replaceable so if any individual part breaks you can replace it instead of the whole laptop. you can also easily make upgrades if better hardware comes out instead of waiting for a newer model if one ever comes out.
how do the modular slots get inputted? if i wanted a usb a one is it a usb a to c converter and if so wojld i need to buy a usb c slot?
all of the modular slots connect by USB C at the front.
you can see what they look like here:
https://frame.work/gb/en/marketplace/expansion-cardsI believe the slots are all USB-C, since they’d need to be the fastest currently possible connector to properly support all the others.
If you wanted a USB-A slot you just need to buy the USB-A module.
since they’d need to be the fastest
“USB C” only describes the connector and has nothing to do with speed.
Yes and no. USB-C is “the faster connector” compared to USB-A 3 because it supports faster protocols like USB 4 and even Thunderbolt 5. USB-A does not. It tops out at USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 (gawd what an awful naming scheme) with 20Gbps and even that’s rare. The newer, faster protocols with 40Gbps (USB4) or even 120Gbps (TB5) need the USB-C connector.
It supports faster protocols, yes. But “USB-C” on it’s own just defines the plug and the socket, and nothing more. That the hardware supports faster protocols does not mean that it can be used to describe a faster connection.
It’s nitpicking, but it is important nitpicking 🙃
The point here, for those downvoting this post, is that if you go out and buy something “with USB-C” it could for example only support the Low Speed rate of USB 1.0 (that’s all of 1.5Mbps, only good for stuff like mice and keyboards) and still be absolutelly legitimatelly be listed for sale as “having USB-C” because that’s just the connector format.
(Actually it’s even worse, as there is a charge only mode for that connector which does not require supporting any USB data modes at all)
There is indeed a connection between the connector (pun not intended) and the maximum speeds supported (but not necessarily present) because USB-C adds additional data lines not present in USB-A or any of the USB-B connectors, which allow higher data throughtput, but the connection is only in the direction of “higher speeds require USB-C”, not “USB-C implies higher speeds”.
All this to say that, IMHO, the previoua poster is right in calling attention to the difference.
Yeah I’m aware but you cannot support the fastest speeds without the additional contacts a type C port provides; unless they went with a proprietary port they wouldn’t be able to do the faster USB speeds.
So while type C doesn’t mean fast by itself, it does allow the capability to carry just about anything.
but if i wanted a usb c slot it’d be best not to even buy one and just use the ones built in already
you can do that but I would recommend against it. it might put strain on that port and if it breaks or is damaged you won’t be able to use that slot for anything else
i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish
You should plan for what you need, not for what you’re willing to pay. If you need a mobile workstation then this 16 inch laptop would be too large and heavy. If you aim for a desktop replacement, then a 13 inch laptop might be too small (docking stations exist, but still …).
The Framework laptop is a nice idea, though. But to be honest: how often did you change the components of your laptops before? One usually changes the SSD and maybe the RAM or the battery or - if you’re really adventurous - the heatpipe and/or the fan. All of this is already possible with most common laptops. If you’re unsure, get a ThinkPad.
I think you’re missing the point of the framework. Let’s say 6 years from now you want to upgrade to a more powerful CPU. Normally that means buying a whole new laptop. With the framework though you just buy a new board and keep all the other components. This saves money and lowers ewaste.
Is that realistic? Not a rhetorical question: I’m genuinely curious. I ask because the last time I tried to update a single (desktop) part, it was more cost-effective to replace the whole Pc and migrate the salvageable parts since the only thing I could have held onto would have been the ram, SSD, and PSU.
I suppose with a laptop you have the monitor to also consider, and admittedly I know nothing about laptop boards, but it just seems like 6 years is replacement time anyway, at least for a daily use computer.
Honestly, we don’t know. Average laptop screens haven’t had any major improvements since IPS, so I think the screens have longevity. RAM and processors are more focused on lower power nowadays. Framework has already shipped “drop-in” replacement boards, and their whole company is based around that idea.
If I had the money and i could afford to wait, I’d be willing to take a bet on Framework. I think the frame of the laptop will hold up as well as any other, but it’s only been a few years so who actually knows.
Laptops from 6 years ago hold up well enough, except the batteries and main boards, if I could have replaced my old main board with a more modern processor and gpu I never would have had to upgrade.
So far as your desktop, you can certainly upgrade your computer without it being more cost effective to do a whole new build. It really just depends on what you need. Mostly it comes down to the limitations of your motherboard.
Every so often they change the CPU socket required for new CPUs. So if you need a new CPU and you already have the best the socket on your mobo can do, then yeah you’re maybe looking at a new build at that point anyway. But otherwise you can just get an upgraded CPU of that socket. Similarly, eventually your motherboard won’t be able to support the latest version of RAM and if you need that you’ll have to replace the motherboard. So on and so forth.
When you replaced your whole PC what did you do with the replaced part?
The last time I replaced my PC the hardware was ca 12 years old and barely working. It went to the recycling center except the harddisk.
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How often did you change the components of your laptop before?
Well that’s the point, ain’t it? You didn’t because you couldn’t. Now this laptop gives you a new plethora of opportunities.
I’ve changed the screen of a thinkpad from 720p to 1080p. Was cheaper to buy that way, and it was really easy to do.
I’ve never had a laptop that I didn’t at the very least upgrade the ram on…
Yep. When the devices get older, I usually upgrade RAM (or install an SSD on very old hardware). Sometimes I even install a new battery.
And that’s the thing: I never ever had any issues doing this. Even the internal battery is just screwed in and connected with a removable plug.
While the Framework laptops are conceptually great, I just don’t see the use case in my world. It’s also pretty much vendor lock-in with the modules.
No.
I don’t trust a single modern platform to last long enough to justify an investment - the company will be acquired and shuttered or the base platform will be upgraded and the current deprecated. The company today can full-throatedly promise you the world, but they know they won’t be here tomorrow to answer for those promises and there are no consumer safeguards in place to hold the future leaders accountable should framework show profit potential and therefore become a target of acquisition to exploit that potential or to squash competition.
Framework is a fun, marketable idea, but Phonebloks / Project Ara me once, shame on you…
I never really saw a computer as an “investment”. They’re pure expenses as far as I’m concerned. Any of the ones I buy could break tomorrow. I don’t buy extended warranties, so outside the legal coverage, I’m SOL if something goes wrong anyway. Considering how bad repairability is with other brands anyway, it’s not like you’re throwing away much. Many of the components are just standard hardware, too - RAM, SSD…
Considering this, I don’t really see why I would deprive myself of buying something rather novel I’m interested in, given the product already showed some reliability, in fear of some potential hostile corporate takeover. YMMV, of course.
I agree. $500 to $1200 is the range at which I would not buy a warranty beyond the initial 12 months. I have purchased (and used) warranties for Mac laptops or PC desktops for work that cost over $2k. I can justify it on the Mac because there is usually one recall issue that needs repair (eg weird keyboard issue) but they otherwise have a long life. I’m at 5 years on my current machine with no plans to update. So many of the existing Framework laptops don’t have GPUs that I can’t understand why anyone would be excited about it. It’s a fun idea but feels like you’re paying a lot of money for the opportunity to pay more in the future.
Eh, I’m a fan of the principle that things should be serviceable. Framework is great in that regard. As for GPUs - my laptops are mostly work machines, and I don’t really need one past just displaying on multiple monitors and UHD/4k support, so most iGPUs are just fine for me. When it comes to laptops, tons of RAM+a decent build quality >>> most other things for me.
I’m in a similar situation as you are though, my current laptop is from 2018 and I don’t have any plans to upgrade short-term.
I think the best part of the Framework is that the parts are replaceable for sure. The keyboard replacement I got was free but if it weren’t it would be several hundred dollars. My dad had a key broken on his laptop and they asked for $700 to fix it. Absurd.
Huh, that’s a good take! Didn’t think about that.
It kind reminds me of the Oneplus brand. I loved the one plus (1) so I bought a Oneplus2 only for it to be put aside fairly quickly. I remember I used to suggest Oneplus to everybody, eventually I told everyone to stay away… Eventually the brand just lost it’s focus imo… Instead trying to pump out as much overpriced garbage as possible…
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Let’s not count Project Ara here, any google project has a 75% chance of being shut down before reaching consumers, they’re just not a good company
Ara was the kill, Phonebloks was first hope and the actual promise that was suffocated by Google in that instance - we’ll absolutely count this here.
They have been here tomorrow for people who bough one with an 11th generation Intel CPU in 2021. I don’t think they are looking to get acquired either.
Companies that are looking to get acquired don’t hold press conferences to announce, “we’re now ready to be acquired”. They typically build and acquire press wins to get attention until they are a thorn in the side of a market leader who then takes a meeting with them. It’s a quiet process, but the initial conversation is almost exclusively, “we’re building this for the long term and we plan to be around for a long time”.
Just like all the products that promise long or even “lifetime” warranties - for most of these tech startups, they are well aware that lifetime means “OUR” short lifetime as a company and not your lifetime as the consumer.
I’m seriously thinking about investing in one…I really like the idea of being able to upgrade and change the system and I/O ports. I also am beginning to think I want to switch to Linux over Windows as it gets more and more invasive.
For 1600 hopefully you get a frame and a long term use repairable machine you can upgrade as needed for years.
Hi, Framework laptop owner here!
I love my laptop. I got it back in June (13th gen Intel) and have used it near-daily ever since. It’s got a nice build quality, I like the way it looks, and the modular slots are a nice concept (though I haven’t seen a need to swap out mine- I elected for 2 x USB-C and 2 x USB-A. You also need to pay attention to which ports go where because not all the slots support USB charging). I bought the barebones laptop, and added my own RAM and SSD to it which was significantly cheaper than getting it from Framework. I currently dual boot Linux Mint and occasionally Windows 11 and have had no significant issues with either, but there are a couple of little annoyances with Mint- the light-sensor to automatically adjust the brightness and the brightness keys conflict, so one or the other or both may not work correctly.
To your real question, is it worth it? Honestly, if performance is your sole metric, then no- there are cheaper alternatives out there for comparable performance. The premium you pay for a Framework is an investment in repairability and customizability- investments that may not pay off if the company doesn’t exist in the long term. All the promises and commitments in the world to letting users have the right to fix or modify their own hardware mean nothing if there’s no one to supply parts. I was aware of this before buying mine, so I was fine accepting that risk- after all, at one point in time Tesla was risky too but now it seems they’re poised to be the charging standard for EVs- and there are a couple of higher-ups at AMD who like the concept and are invested in Framework, which means it may be around for a while. But that’s still something you should keep in mind.
That said, you said you were looking for a $500-ish laptop, and are now asking about one that will cost you over double that? It’s not for me to tell you how to spend your money, but it sounds like you saw a cool idea and want to jump on the bandwagon. You should be extra sure that what you’re looking for fits your needs within your budget and you’re not just trying to “keep up with the Joneses.”
TL;DR: If you have the money, and are okay with the risk of a small company existing long-term, and it has the performance you need, then yes, I think they’re good buys.
do you need to biy usb c modules as theyre already 4 usb c’s built-in. also, how do i check if a memory stick will fit in befroehand
The memory modules are standard laptop SO-DIMM DDR4-3200 for the 13th Gen Intel (though the AMD version launching later this year will support DDR5). The storage slot is a standard M.2.
Do you absolutely need to buy the USB-C cards? Probably not, since the motherboard connections are USB-C. But you’re gonna have four gaps on the bottom of your laptop, it won’t be easy plugging or removing cables, and as someone else already said, the weight of a cord will put strain on the slot whereas the expansion cards put that strain on the case itself instead of the motherboard.
But they’re also only $9 each. The laptop itself is $1000+ and you wanna skimp out on $36 for expansion cards? If that’s where you’re looking at saving money, I’m seriously gonna suggest you look at other laptops that are much cheaper.
To be honest you probably won’t save money as you’ll be more likely to upgrade regularly. I bought my Framework 13-inch last year and already bought a gorgeous new matte screen for it, and I’d been eyeing upgrading the mainboard with the new AMD one now. In the past with laptops I’d hold onto them for years until they couldn’t perform, and now I’m considering upgrading my device a second time within only a year?
I really do love my Framework, but the easier upgradability makes upgrading more likely, which means more expenses - unless you can restrain from upgrading more often than you would on a laptop. Since budget seems to be a concern for you this may be worth keeping in mind. On the other hand though, I’d be concerned about how long a $500 laptop will last you anyway (the ones I used for years were more like $1200).
One final thing - some parts can’t necessarily be carried over when upgrading to a new generation. For example, to upgrade to the AMD mainboard I’ll also have to buy new RAM as the generation upgraded to a newer variant. If I want to use my old mainboard as a home server, I’ll also have to purchase replacement parts for what it loses in the upgrade (new hard drive, new expansion ports, cheap case). It’s great if you had an existing need for a home server, not so much if you didn’t. Since I hate throwing out electronics I’ll end up buying more to keep it operational, even though in practice I won’t use it very much.
TL;dr - Framework makes upgrading and reuse cheaper and easier, which if you’re like me makes you spend more money and upgrade more frequently.
I mean, this logic could extend to desktop computers, and most people don’t upgrade theirs for years on end. But I can definitely see the sheer novelty of being able to do this with a laptop being a motivator…
There is one main difference in this comparison. If you upgrade your desktop consistently, those old parts are valuable on the used market, which can make the upgrades more affordable. Used laptop parts are less desirable due to their inoperability.
Depends… The SSD or RAM is just, well, an SSD or RAM. Maybe for those model specific hardware like monitor upgrades, yeah.
Personally, I’d like a framework with a dGPU option. Nothing big like an RTX 4 series, but just something more than the onboard UHD 630.Hey, what do you know, there’s an option for a detachable graphics module, hell yeah.
You could either sell the old mainboard or turn it in to a server imo or if you’re really hardware knowledgable take up the challenge of making a discount lenovo yoga book 9i
Could you also sell your 2nd hand old main board? That would lessen the blow of a new upgrade (considering you have no need for a home server).
I have thought about a framework laptop but my laptop is a humongous gaming laptop so I don’t think framework has the horsepower I’m looking for. The fact that it’s modular is soooooo tempting though…
It’s not a bad option, but probably the best choice would be to just buy a new Framework entirely and sell the old one. Other than other home-labbers I’m not sure who’d be interested in buying a last-generation Framework mainboard, as anyone with a Framework already would likely upgrade to the latest.
Big laptops aren’t really my thing, but you may be interested in the 16-inch Framework that’s coming out as it has a slot for a dedicated GPU.
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They have an adapter that turns it into a desktop computer, sort of like an Intel NUC.
whats an intel NUC
Tiny desktop computer made from laptop components. https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/boards-kits/nuc/what-is-nuc-article.html
whos they?
Oh… You mean like buying it and using it as a modular desktop? That could be interesting but I don’t know if it’ll have the horse power I need anyways (for gaming). For a home server I bet it’ll be more than enough.
Also, I travel with my laptop somewhat frequently so a desktop wouldn’t be ideal (unfortunately. I prefer desktops over laptops)
No it’s so you can do something with the motherboard when you replace it other than ewaste. Here’s the part. It’s only $40 but you need to add a couple parts like a wifi module. https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case
Module laptops are a niche gimmick and a waste of money.
I’m interested in a framework laptop for the environmental perspective, but I also think a pre-owned high end device would be faster and with smaller impact.
This question comes up for me quite a bit. It’s great that project like this exist, but if the project fails, does the environmental impact of the parts become just as bad as any other electronic device because there’s no longer a project coordinating the manufacturing of replacement parts?
Additionally, refurbished Lenovo Thinkpads, while obviously not nearly as customizable/modifiable, may (emphasis on may) have a longer shelf life due to build quality (as well as general care and maintenance by the user), and are probably easily repairable by hardware repair shops.
Environmental Impact, Longevity, and Cost should be the major priorities for the conscientious discerning tech consumer, and imho in that specific order.
The environmental impact of the parts is already just as bad as any other laptop.
Pollution happens at the point of production!
If a person were worried about the environmental impact, a glass and aluminum mac would be the better choice. Replacing a bunch of plastic with easily and efficiently recyclable metal and glass has a huge impact.
In my opinion, the Framework laptop is great for people who want the newest and fastest CPUs, whule also getting the customizability and repairability. I mean yeah, I’d buy an older Thinkpad, but programming in C doesn’t require much compute power or RAM. However, my graphic design and video editor friends won’t make a living using the same machine as I do. For them, the Framework is miles better than any other brand new machine with the same specs (if they want repairability, etc.).
Just saw a video on YouTube where someone built a cyberdeck using the framework mainboard and accessories. Had me really intrigued that you can buy into a laptop ecosystem that basically enables hacking, too.
link vid please
Here you are: Link
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I’d get a cheaper laptop for $400 or so (Walmart/BestBuy have those with decent specs), add in some more RAM and swap the NVMe. True, no Coreboot (wait, do you get Framework laptops with Coreboot?), but otherwise better value for the money
For me it’s the only laptop that might entice me from leaving “the dark side” (Apple).
Would then install some Linux distro on it though.
If Linux supported all that proprietary software that I need (or am used to using), I’d have switched already… And in my gaming machine, I’ll be switching, if Linux finally supports HDR
Yeah, that’s mainly it indeed. For now my laptop works fine and I am not in need of a new one. But if it stops working, I might just switch. And the better than Mac gaming support would already be nice.
