Title. Mainly asking for the library side, but PC cafe is also interesting to ask about.
Mainly since Windows 11 is 64-bit only, and it seems Windows 12 is going to subscription based on top of that, neither of which public libraries can afford tossing out computers and paying more in subscription fees than they make with overdue books.
My local library is only open for 2 days a week, due to a lack of funds for hiring more staff in the area. They use older Dell all in ones, and that just makes me think if they don’t have the money for being open 5 days a week, they don’t have the money to buy 4 new computers for the space.
Not even getting into the bigger libraries part of that system or the ones nearby. Some have 8 computers in groups, with 4 stations of groups.
So I was just wondering, if anyone has started or is aware of a Library/Public Computer focused linux-based OS? Perhaps one that allows immutable systems, and the library card system backed most use to enable end user access. Perhaps that’s a config file tucked away somewhere.
And I guess the PC cafe OS is interesting, simply due to the fact that Linux gaming has been making huge strides, and PC cafes are still popular in Japan, Korea, and China.
EDIT: I am not in control or assistance to the library, just looking if there’s a potential solution to libraries like mine. If I could give links to a library computer manager, or if I could give upstream bug reports to people making such software.
Honestly I’d
- take any distribution that someone at or close to the library is comfortable with, e.g popular Ubuntu or Debian,
- setup a user profile that fits the need of the average library user, e.g Firefox with as a start page the library website
- make sure the library card system do work
- copy /home/thatuser directory somewhere, e.g /root/thatuserunmodified and insure permissions make it unmodifiable
- add a cron task so that every evening 1h after the library close any thatuser session is terminated, /home/thatuser gets deleted, copy the /root/thatuserunmodified to /home/thatuser and fixer permission
- assuming it’s fast enough (I bet it’s take 1min at most as /home/thatuser would be mostly empty) I’d do the process after each logout so that each new visitor gets a fresh session, no downloads from previous users, history, bookmarks, etc. Only what the library consider useful.
That’s it. This way one can still let the OS do it’s updates but the user experience is consistent.
This is how we used to do it before we had NixOS with impermanence mode. https://nixos.wiki/wiki/Impermanence
Probably a cleaner way indeed but again mindful about how familiar people who can help the library are with NixOS vs Ubuntu/Debian.
All it takes is one person to share a complete config and I’d assert that it’s actually easier than Ubuntu/Debian to setup (especially if you’re talking about deploying a fleet of identical configurations or even a config that lives on a liveISO meant for installing the OS with these options baked-in).
Granted it’s not there yet and you’re correct but soon: One-click deployment would make it even easier than Debian/Ubuntu.Also, IMO Nix is a force-multiplier. For example, I alone could probably configure a whole fleet of systems declaratively with Nix AT LEAST as well as a config script repo that has 20 people contributing to it since, in Nix, if it builds, it’s pretty much ready for production.
The fact alone that Nix allows you to simply list the software you want on the computer and it takes care of everything else (rather than a long, error prone sudo apt-get install command list that may or may not install because dependencies aren’t locked) would cause me to select Nix every single time.
I’m just kind of bewildered how anyone can argue against Nix by invoking a method of Linux install where you sudo apt get 400 commands in a precise order (and if you accidentally go out of order, you might screw up your system) and you also have to carefully manage dependencies and will be SOL if one piece of software requires one version of python while another requires an entirely different version.
Maybe I’m misrepresenting the labor market and the availability of professionals working with Nix. That’s also why I mentioned Ubuntu/Debian not on the basis of technical merit but “just” popularity. Now if you are suggesting that they could hire somebody working with Nix just as easily for that task, sure they could go for it.
As a librarian this is an awesome idea but unlikely to work out long term for a couple of reasons relating to the libraries.
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Patrons will absolutely freak out if the computer they sit down at doesn’t look like the Windows machine they are expecting. Even the time-keeping software we use makes people uncomfortable and it’s just a countdown clock for the 30 minutes they signed up for. I’ve had a very expensive Mac desktop for art and music software go totally unused for years because most patrons want a Windows computer to check their Hotmail. Librarian sobs
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Unless the library 'technologist" or IT team is already really into Linux in their off time AND paid well enough to bring that experience with them to the office, the people tasked with keeping it running will fail within 6 months and revert it back to something they can fix fast. Generally there’s one IT department that’s handing the libraries and other government run service offices and they will not take the time to do anything out of the ordinary.
Maybe for a subset of computers in a large library like the stand-up quick access stations or catalog lookup computers near the books. Linux can and does a lot of good keeping these one-use stations going despite the fact the run on 1998 Dell Potatoes.
In my experience as soon as they get a web browser, people don’t care. Most people are lost when they have to deal with the file manager on Windows anyway…
Problem is people are really sensitive to change
We see it as “oh just open the browser and it’s the same” they see a foreign system, different icons, UI elements, etc and panic
We’ve got the biased viewpoint of people who know computers well enough not to be afraid of breaking something by clicking the wrong button
I imagine if you put a windows skin on KDE or something to make everything look the same they wouldn’t even notice though
My experience with “real” people is that they don’t even see the difference. Only so-called “Windows power users” are annoyed.
I got my mother a Chromebook and she used it for years, even tried to explain her it was not the same as her previous Windows PC she never understood it was not the same.
I strongly disagree with your first point. Kids these days are more familiar with ChromeOS than Windows. Google has proven that as long as it has Chrome and a taskbar at the bottom people will be fine with it.
For long term support I also disagree with #2. The company I work for develops software that goes into both windows and Linux environments. The Windows environments are several orders of magnitude harder to secure and maintain because you never know what bullshit Microsoft is going to pull with their updates.
It may be easier to find a Windows IT person to maintain the system but it’s going to be significantly more expensive and significantly less reliable than an immutable OS like Fedora silverblue.
The vast majority of computer users at my libraries have been adults over 50. The kids in my areas use the Chrome OS Computers they are getting from the schools.
If we had a lot of under 25s coming in to use the public PCs, I agree that Chrome OS would be a good pick.
I live in a large metropolitan area in the US and my kids have never used ChromeOS. Our school district issues iPads for elementary school and middle school and beyond receive Windows laptops. Our public library is 100% Windows with the exception of the makerspace which has a few imacs scattered around. Their Windows computers re-image themselves after every use so securing them is really not much of an issue.
While I love Linux and free choice in OS, it’s painful that this needs to be said, and painful that it’s being attacked so harshly. Having watched people have meltdowns in university libraries after having to use OSX instead of the already taken PC’s, people will likely lose their shit. Hell, they lose their shit over stupid things like start menus being on the top of the screen or Firefox instead of Chrome…
On your second point, I’m sure there is an argument towards free Linux education for a specific sector where Linux has a genuine benefit. The problem as I see it is libraries are often council/government run, and you’d basically need to petition at that point to say “you will pay X for Windows, use Y, which supports all of your old, clunky hardware, with free training on us, and you’ll save Y”.
Of course, this all involves having a distro that’ll easily solve driver issues for 20+ year old printers and fax machines, with support for the shitty web interface libraries use that require IE7 or it flips out, and great support if something does go wrong…all while ensuring that Microsoft won’t just give out cheap subscriptions to keep libraries on their tab.
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If Windows 12 becomes subscription-based, Google and Apple will be laughing all the way to the bank.
If it becomes subscription only, I wouldn’t be surprised if the OEM pays for it for at least a few years (as in included in the price)
They wouldn’t want to go out of business.
And Microsofts main consumer which is enterprises wouldn’t really be affected since Windows is already a subscription for many of them in the form of M365 (for example, it’s included in E3)
And I doubt Apple would make much more money since their OS is so different and locked down compared to Windows. If Apple started to sell a license for whatever computer then yeah that could happen, but they won’t.
ChromeOS is free but their office suite isn’t really comparable to MS.
You have to understand that the bulk of computer buyers aren’t really that computer literate. As someone who worked 4 years in IT, I’ll tell you that the average computer user doesn’t even know how to install a graphics card driver, let alone do any other stuff. If given the choice between even $5 a month or learning to use a Mac or a Chromebook, people will learn to use a Mac or a Chromebook. Linux isn’t even a consideration.
The vast majority of people are perfectly happy with Google Docs/Slides/Sheets for daily personal use. If the choice comes down to using the Google office suite or paying a subscription, people tend to avoid paying. I know ZERO people who subscribe to Office 365 for personal use (besides those tricked into it). They either pay for the one-off license, pirate if they know how, use copies paid for by their work, or use alternatives.
People don’t care that ChromeOS and MacOS are locked down. They don’t do anything that requires the “unlocked” operating system and you can bet your ass that if Microsoft starts charging a subscription fee, Apple and Google’s marketing teams will jump so hard on that it’ll crack the pavement.
My main points were about Microsofts biggest customers, aka enterprises which is why I said that, and mentioned office at all.
I highly doubt normal windows will ever charge a subscription fee. I won’t consider it until microsoft removes the popular ways to get office and windows free from GitHub (a service they own) and they haven’t yet, after many years.
Microsoft doesn’t really care that much about personal usage.
You’re right that Microsoft’s main source of income is enterprise customers. But at the same time, I strongly believe that IT departments worldwide would start to seriously consider what tasks they really need Windows or Microsoft Office for and start considering giving as many employees as possible Macs or Chromebooks or even Linux systems. An additional $5 a month multiplied by a thousand systems is $60,000 p.a. I do see IT directors trying to minimise the number of Windows licenses wherever possible in that case. Does the receptionist really need Windows when the scheduling software is cloud-based? Can we replace it with a Chromebook? Is it finally worth it to give the designers the Macs they’ve been clamouring for? And the big one—do we really need Active Directory specifically now that everyone’s got a Mac or a Chromebook? These are questions that have to be answered by IT departments worldwide and every time they’re answered in the affirmative, it costs Microsoft another customer. Not everyone will switch, but the impact will still be non-negligible, and people will also think twice before getting Microsoft systems in the future.
I think you’re right. Microsoft isn’t stupid enough to try this.
Windows is already a subscription for many companies through microsoft 365.
That’s true and if Microsoft decrees “Windows is included at no charge with a Microsoft 365 license”, I would think that’s many times more palatable.
And per user license for acceasing server
I’m pretty sure user CALS are also included in at least the more popular 365 subscriptions like E3
ChromeOS Flex is an interesting choice for kiosks. There’s a great case study from Nordic Choice Hotels: https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/chrome-enterprise/nordic-choice-hotels-bounces-back-ransomware-attack-chromeos-flex.
Being a Google product, I don’t expect it to have a long life span
Honestly I think a bunch of simple scripts would be more than enough.
For guest account all you need is to clear their directory in /home/ every logout/login. If you don’t give them root permission, they cannot mess with the system.
I know that our library system is time based and will give patrons a limit they can renew. Probably something you can do with a script too. I think their software has a management console so they can remotely terminate the sessions.
I get what you say that they can’t afford to be tossing out old equipment … But there hasn’t been a x86 based 32bit PC made in over 20 years. Are you really trying to find an OS for systems that old or is this just a thought experiment?
I’m generally not a fan of endless os (very locked down), but this might be a good low-maintenance option for libraries.
Endless comes out of the box with offline educational materials and learning apps.
Flatpak based distribution.
My local bike coop used to run mint. Something similar-ish to Windows should be fine, as would something very user friendly like pop or ubuntu. The biggest thing is going to be teaching all your librarians how to do basic tasks in it so they can answer questions like “why can’t I open word”, “where’s the internet”, “how do I print”, and “why did you change your computers to something nobody knows how to use”
Anything would work; people don’t
There are people that think Linux is all terminal based and refuse to use it because of that
I’m not going to lie but I’ve been playing around with a VDI setup for internet cafes. Let’s you use servers that places are liquidating in the back, but cheaper thinclient/zero client at the actual desks. Also helps reduce user damage and theft where that is a concern (can’t tell you how many IT tickets I’ve worked because of people kicking cables).
The nice thing is it means you can in real time load new OSs, so you could have them all default to the Linux distro and only have a few windows licenses and a button to switch on the Linux desktop, in case people NEED windows for something (could even do this with Apple stuff, but the complexity sky rockets to me).
To summarise: use a terminal server system if you can, using a desktop for the end user that can be made to behave like windows (or another concept that works for your demography), and have the whole setup in a NixOS configuration that you manage in git.
I see that https://github.com/ltsp/ltsp is still going strong.
I’m not sure of exactly how they manage everything, but my county library system uses Debian with an XFCE interface.
Not sure if it’s because it’s been this way long enough now, or it just looks close enough to Windows, but I haven’t known anyone to complain (and my in-laws complain about everything else)
Windows 12 is not going to a subscription model, stop repeating this obvious bullshit. The original article was debunked yet dumbasses keep spouting it.
Imagine trying to sell a computer to some old lady with a subscription OS:
This computer costs $300. But to run it you need to pay another $10 a month.
“Do you have any where I don’t have to pay every month?”
Salesperson proceeds to recommend a Chromebook or a Mac.
The technically-savvy would look for Windows 11 machines, those who could and know how would install Linux, others will buy a Chromebook or a Mac, and only the truly stupid would pay the subscription.
So most people will pay the subscription.
Are you in control of the library, or is this just as a recommendation?
Not in control, just curious if I could give assistance to my local library.
I’ve used Webconverger previously to setup public facing kiosks with a browser hardcoded to a book-search address as the home page. Quite robust and most users could not break or break out of the browser environment.
Webconverger seems to be EOL this year though. RIP and thanks.
Search for ‘linux kiosk’ to find other options. (Seems like Porteus is the go-to these days)
