With these new rules, FIDE has managed to
- Imply the mental inferiority of women
- Validate the existence of transgender men
- Destroy the integrity of awards record-keeping
- Call transgender women men
Very nice, FIDE, incredible mental gymnastics performance! 👏 Add them to the ever lengthening sports federation shitlist.
Why are men and women separated in chess competition at all? There is no logical reason other than sexism and transphobia. The reason the top women in the world are so far below the top men is because chess has historically been a man’s game and the history of and continued sexism has no doubt kept out women who could be just as good as the best men. I play chess regularly online and have lost to both men and women. I wouldn’t be surprised if several top chess players chose to leave fide in favor of other competitions over this.
I’m a chess fan. Men-only events were abolished in the 1980s. There are now women’s events (no men allowed) and open events (everyone allowed). In practice open events are 90% male, and the male players, especially at the lower levels, tend to fit the smelly and socially inept stereotype. Playing in them can be unpleasant for women, and women’s events exist basically to provide playing venues where women can enjoy competitive chess while staying the hell away from us clueless males. As a clueless male myself, I can get behind that, no problem. I understand and I’m fine with it. How do cis women feel about playing alongside trans women? Idk, I’m cis male and I don’t feel entitled to spout off about that. But I think they are the ones I’d want to listen to the most.
The top levels from what I can tell aren’t as bad as the lower levels, since the effort it takes to reach that level of chess tends to weed out the clueless and lazy. There is still bad stuff though, e.g. the incidents with GM Alejandro Ramirez.
You might like the book Chess Bi tch (that is the title, damn censor bot),by WGM Jennifer Shahade reviewed here , about her experiences in both women’s and open chess events coming up through the ranks.
As for FIDE, there currently aren’t really alternatives at the top levels. FIDE on the other hand is not much of a factor in lower and mid level chess. Those events tend to be regulated by national and ad hoc federations, etc.
Great comment, very insightful.
Also, censor bot? Where is there a censor bot?
I griped about the censor bot here: https://lemmy.ml/post/3449468
Since men have been getting support and funding for over a century in sports and games like this, you end up with them dominating the field. Women’s categories bring in more female players that otherwise wouldn’t have a chance if the entire game was open only. But on the other hand, this enables concern-trolling over “transgender invasion”. It’s also applied questionably to sports that maybe don’t need this such as in the case of Zhang Shan & Olympic skeet shooting. It can reinforce gender stereotypes. Finally, I’d say it’s frustratingly slow at leveling the playing field.
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But without fail, after we get some progress, they come up with some way of absolutely setting everything back with new weird regulations, changes in funding, changes in language. It’s bizarre. It’s self sabotage.
because it’s on purpose. They’re bigots, this is what bigots do to fight social progress.
Oops, you gave it away! Turns out if you make this move you either admit:
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That you think people who are biologically male have an advantage in mental only competition
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That you want to punish transgender people for transitioning by taking away what they’ve earned and preventing them from participating in the future.
How completely and utterly shocking, that the trans people in sports “fairness” debate was just a badly put together costume for sexism and transphobia. I tell you, I’m more shocked about this than anything. Definitely.
That you think people who are biologically male have an advantage in mental only competition
Doesn’t supporting gender/sex separated leagues existing at all imply exactly the same thing?
yes - but at least there you could argue that it’s a historical relic.
I don’t think anyone could reasonably argue that the attitude that men are smarter than women (or at least, better at chess) didn’t exist previously, and that’s why they leagues are setup this way. But it’s one thing to not change existing policies rooted in sexism, and another entirely to create new policies rooted in sexism.
The former happens literally all the time, because large institutions are slow to change, and even though blatant sexism is no longer socially acceptable, it’s still prevalent in peoples’ heads. When the latter happens, it understandably causes more uproar, because it’s an active move towards more sexist policies.
Don’t get me wrong, we should absolutely get rid of gender based leagues IMO and switch to having leagues based on ability (whatever the critical ability might be for the competition in question) and call it a day - that would solve both the sexism issue and the trans issue, as there would no longer be any “unfair advantages”. What genitals a person was born with - whether they kept them or not - shouldn’t impact how you’re allowed to compete especially in an activity like chess that has no reasonable basis for gender separation in the first place
Im not too familiar with Chess, but is there gendered leagues with Chess? Cause if so that seems really weird.
Like physical sports I understand a seperation and understand the need to regulate transgendered individuals due to physical difference between genders.
But for a mental cognitive sport that seems ludicrous to do
Yes, there are gendered leagues with Chess because misogyny
If women were treated equally at the highest level of chess they would only have <1% representation as of 2021.
There is only one woman in the top 100 ELO currently.
If women were held to the same intellectual standards of men in chess, they would only exist as rare, near singular phenomena, and then THAT would, rightfully, be called misogyny.
If you want to compete at the highest level, you must first compete–if you cannot compete, then you are not competing–it’s built into the concept a priori. White men who are hateful are all for affirmative action because it keeps the weak weak. You can imagine Don Draper smiling and typing back whiskey while the victims are given handouts–resented by the rest of humanity, wrongfully or rightfully–this is how they make their racist fantasies racist realities.
I don’t think it’s an intellectual shortcoming either: it may even be that men are just mentally ill when it comes to excellence in competition and not excellence for its own sake, which I think more women are open minded enough to see; and, that men are more likely to take things “too far.”
Men also had to swallow that computers–built by people of diverse backgrounds and genders–are far better at calculating chess outcomes, and someone might complain that computer constructors should be allowed to enter AI and have it ELO ranked.
On top of all this, I think chess would be delighted with female stars especially after Queen’s Gambit. I can’t imagine they would turn down the massive amounts of money that would generate (see formula W drivers/Danica Patrick) even if all they did was ALMOST win.
At some point reality sets and you’re left with only hard truths. The hard truth about chess is that it’s a war fantasy computation board game probably invented by and for male brain reward structure.
Women are proving much more capable than men in society, which is what matters, but if they want to win at chess or backgammon or go or shogi they’re going to have to develop an insane priority structure where you would sooner skin your mother alive than lose.
Next, you’re going to tell me skull size matters.
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IMO you’ve hit the nail on the head.
These conflicts and confusions are the consequences of gendered leagues, but because the issues come up in the context of transgender people, it makes it seem like an issue with transgender people.
Buuut then there is the issue of the representation of women in (most) popular professional sports is much lower, and would be worse without this delineation along gender lines.
So what we need is to make up our mind if we want either:
All sports to be as fair at all times as physically possible
Or
If we want to see all genders fairly represented in popular professional sports
If it is the first, we should ungender the leagues. If it is the second, we should stop worrying about it and let transgender people compete wherever they want.
no, it’s a tool used to combat the overwhelming misogyny that makes it extremely unappealing for women to participate in. It’s only effective when these orgs actually use other policies to work alongside it, which of course they never do.
Well, sometimes it is a physical competition. You can break your leg if you do a hard enough move!
you think people who are biologically male have an advantage in mental only competition
They do. There are two types of chess competition: open and women only. Women don’t do well in the open competition which is why they added the women only competition.
But it’s not because men on average have an advantage. It’s because men have a greater spread of chess ability so the very top men tend to do better than the top women.
Something to keep in mind with studies are outside social factors such as less women playing chess and less women being exposed to chess at a young age. There are fewer women in chess and fewer girls learning chess, for probably centuries. This will have a factor when comparing two demographics.
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I like how this manages to be both transphobic and like insanely sexist. Way to go, FIDE! Can you guys work homophobia or racism in there for a hat trick?
Someone tell me why there is even a “womens chess” for them to insanely bar trans people from, gender doesn’t affect chess in the 1st place.
In case you don’t know - there are two categories: open and women-only. Anyone can compete in open, no matter what their gender/sex is. Women can also compete against other women only if they want. It’s definitely not like “oh you’re a woman, you can’t compete here, it’s only for men”.
But let me call myself a women so i can stop being 10th place and take 1st in women league
I’m waiting to hear a reason that doesnt go back to some tired stereotype in the lines of “Men are smarter than women, so its not fair”.
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Maybe the amazing women chess players just have better things to do
That was interesting. Thanks for posting.
Historically, women did not feel welcome at open chess tournaments. Chess talent was seen as synonymous with intellectual brilliance, so some men would not take it well when they were beat by a woman. I like to think that this has changed, but there’s probably still an element of this. Regardless, women’s tournaments were set up so that women who wanted to play chess competitively would have an opportunity to do so safely and without the fear of harassment. They still exist because people still compete in them and enjoy them, so why stop?
Thank you.
There are too many women in chess after the popularity of the queen gambit, said FIDE. What can we do or say to get them go away?
Really, what is the nationality of the FIDE leadership? Are they Russia? I remember a lot of famous Russians playing.
Yes the current leader is a generic russian politician/stooge, but the previous leader was a real firecracker! He claimed to have been abducted by aliens and to have visited their planet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirsan_Ilyumzhinov
FIDE banned Russians though
I really wish posts like this included more interesting discussion, instead of 90 % of people just white knighting how shocked they are and how awful this is!
Yea we get it after the first comment, you don’t need to post the same shit over and over.
My personal genuine question is to women, how they feel about transgender women in their sports? For physical sports I’d imagine it matters even more.
Chess is just a brain game so it really shouldn’t matter at all, but I’d still love to womens opinion on the subject.
Woman here, and genuinely, I don’t know what’s right.
I can recognise that m>f after puberty gives someone a strength advantage but at the same time it’s hard enough having to transition without feeling even more marginalised by being banned from sports.
Maybe there needs to be just a women’s and open category to recognise the strength handicap that cis women have for certain activities and allow anyone to compete in open, but then there’s the challenge of prize money, viewers etc etc between the two that also needs to be managed appropriately.
At the end of the day, someone isn’t going to be happy and for that there is no good solution, but we need to be doing our best for cis and trans athletes to make sure everyone has a chance to compete in the sports they live.
Chess? Banning trans competitors is fucking idiotic and the chess federation can fuck right off with that implied notion of women being less capable.
Maybe there needs to be just a women’s and open category to recognise the strength handicap that cis women have for certain activities and allow anyone to compete in open, but then there’s the challenge of prize money, viewers etc etc between the two that also needs to be managed appropriately.
I’m fairly certain that this is already the case, and what’s being done here as well. Specifically that there isn’t a “men’s” category, there’s open, and there’s women’s. In chess specifically it’s a strange situation. My understanding is that the existence of “women’s chess” isn’t due to any inferiority of play (though there’s undoubtedly some sexism in its origin) but rather as a way to entice women to play and grow the sport. There’s no restrictions on a woman being granted the grandmaster title, but a man can’t hold a Women’s Grandmaster title.
Not keeping your women specific titles as a trans man at least tracks for that. As to not being able to compete as a trans woman I don’t really see the point. I could see an argument for resetting your ELO because there is a lower ELO pool in women’s chess (due to population, nothing enforced) and your ELO could be unduly skewed, but idk. That’s kinda getting beyond my competitive chess knowledge
Tldr; this is probably dumb and misguided, but maybe not as hostile as the headline first looked to me
In most sports the men’s group is technically open. Most women just don’t succeed because of the sheer difference in physicality.
The solution is easy, just open more categories ciswomen, transwomen and anyone who identifies with the female gender. Same for men. Done.
Not enough people to make a meaningful category tho
Point is more categories are required now. Leave cis women as category then make other categories like open for all, trans people, people that identifies with the female gender, etc. Sure some categories might not have many competitors, but this way eveyone can play in the categories they feel comfortable.
The problem is that the way sports is funded is through competition and you can’t have competition without competitors. Small categories are inefficient and will be removed as a business decision. Also it’s kind of meaningless to say “I’m the best in X category” when there are 3 people in that category.
It might help you to understand that there has been a lot of study in many sports (for the very reason of your uncertainty).
Apparently, testosterone level (not birth gender) is the effective indicator of expected performance. In all women’s sports that allow trans competitors, trans individuals need to test **lower ** testosterone levels than are naturally allowable in cis women.
The issue is this. For someone trans to be willing and able to power through all the bullshit, they need to be uniquely dedicated and talented (or they’d just not do it). What that means is that unsurprisingly some trans individuals are absolutely phenomenal at a given sport.
Ultimately, there’s the problem. “We” seem to think a m>f individual doesn’t have an unfair advantage ONLY if they lose. So we’re not looking for the average or variance of skill, only the fact that there exists a trans individual that shines. It’s hard not to look at a trans woman winning and say “see, that’s what happens when someone born male competes with a woman in this sport”. But it’s also unscientific, as the science says trans women compete with comparative attributes to cis women.
Chess? Banning trans competitors is fucking idiotic and the chess federation can fuck right off with that implied notion of women being less capable.
Yeah, there’s no real defense to the two being separated in any league.
“Discussion” about this is just transphobic concern trolling, so it’s not necessary.
This whole transgender people in sports “debate” (a debate should have good arguments on both sides, this one doesn’t) is nothing but shitass boomers punishing people they think are “weird” for no other reason than spite.
What a weird way to go about it. Knowing a small amount about chess ratings the loss or changing of title does in some ways make sense though in the way that the bar for a woman to be considered GM is lower than a man. So effectively you would have a title that may have a rating requirement higher than your pre-transition rating. I get that part…. But the rest?
These are weird rules that really don’t need to be there and I hope too GMs speak out against this in both the male and female sections. There has been quite a bit of drama in the chess community in recent years over what is essentially gender discrimination. So another stain on chess with this one.
Editing to add: the differing rating requirements in an intellectual game are very strange to begin with. There are many women who meet the requirements of being a GM(male) rather than a WGM and they’re a significantly smaller portion of the overall chess players
Haha what a joke, do they think anyone will take them seriously after this? Who’s running FIDE, Putin?!
Alas I have no interest in chess myself, but if I did, I’d stay far, far away from bigots and fascists like this lot have revealed themselves to be.
So the argument about physical capabilities used to ban trans women from sports was bullshit and it was all actually transphobia?! Color me shocked
Well… no. There are maybe 50 women total who could play in the NFL, mostly as kickers. In basketball, women use a smaller ball because their hands are just smaller. Someone who’s FTM is probably not going to be able to compete.
There are enduring advantages from living most of your life pumped with testosterone. But there’s so few top athletes who transition MTF in their prime, it’s not a big problem. Just look at Caitlyn Jenner. She could still beat most women (and men) at a track meet.
Just gonna paste an old comment I made about trans athletes. TL;DR: athletic advantages/disadvantages diminish after ~2 years of HRT. There’s no good reason to exclude trans people from elite sports. Athletes already undergo testing to make sure their hormones levels are within pre-determined limits.
British Journal of Sports Medicine states 2 years after receiving gender affirming hormones, athletic advantages disappeared with an exception to running, in which trans- women had 9% faster lap times. Trans-men were on par with their biological male counterparts after just 1 year of hormone therapy.
Medscape has an interview with Joanna Harper, and advisor to the I0C on gender and sports about this very topic. In the interview she mentions a study out of Brazil that indicates a further decrease in strength in trans-women (MtF) athletes after 36 months, further diminishing any potential physiological advantage in these athletes.
There’s also something to be said about who these arguments are targeting. There are very few elite trans athletes and they already have to conform to strict guidelines on blood hormone levels and other doping tactics, just like everyone else at that level. The arguments are largely against high schoolers (children) who just want to participate in something. No one is taking puberty blockers and gender affirming hormones just to take a trophy home in high school. It’s a ridiculous argument through and through. A thinly veiled attempt to further marginalize and discriminate against a vulnerable population
athletic advantages/disadvantages diminish after ~2 years of HRT
This is what I keep thinking whenever I hear about this “debate.” But I guess if the bigots admitted they know how hormones work, then they wouldn’t have an outlet for their transphobia.
The issue of transgender athletes was basically resolved several years ago when the IOC decided on two years of feminizing hormones before transgender women could compete in the female category. But due to the re-emergence of the anti-queer culture war, sports federations are re-litigating the issue and throwing science out the door.
I’m sure muscle diminishes rapidly after MTF transition, but humans are just very good at losing muscle. Height and hand size are not things that go away after transition. Basketball is obviously one of the sports where MTF people have a massive advantage, although I don’t know of any studies on it. It depends massively on the sport.
Of course in professional leagues everyone is genetically unique. Saying “no this particular genetically unique person is unfair” is a bit weird.
When you start talking about height and hand size, I think you’re getting lost in the sauce. Basketball already favors abnormally tall people anyway, but no one is trying to ban Yao Ming from the sport for being 229 cm (7’6").
Beat me to the punch. This has been a settled issue for years, the only reason to hammer on about how trans people shouldn’t be in sports is either prejudice or ignorance. And having a several comment exchange where sources are already cited kinda narrows that down
Yeah. Pretty much all the transphobic arguments could apply to most top athletes.
“Yao Ming is stealing sports from natural, normal height men!”
“Michael Phelps has an unfair advantage because he has unnatural lungs and bone structure!”
“It’s not fair to normal men that they have to compete against Mike Tyson. Would you want your son to have to fight against that?”
The reality is that the top athletes will always be physical outliers. That doesn’t mean more average folks need to be excluded from sports nor that birth gender necessarily gives you an unfair advantage compared to the top athletes.
Have you seen Michael Phelp’s hands. The man is an absolute genetic freak with multiple advantages, both in external build and internally (e.g. lactose buildup), there’s no way anyone with average genetics can compete no matter how much they train.
And middle of the road athletes competing in the men’s leagues don’t become top athletes in the woman’s league after transitioning, btw. They become middle of the road. Might there be some slight advantage? Dunno, not sure, might be, but it also doesn’t matter because noone the fuck is willing to incur gender dysphoria to win a fucking title. Athletes are nuts but not that nuts.
Bans Russians, now bans transgender people. Gee I wonder why NATO controlled entities are always evil…
The president of FIDE was a former Deputy Prime Minister of Russia. NATO has a lot of power, but to say they control FIDE is ridiculous.
How did Russian players get banned after the Ukraine conflict started, then? NATO has exactly that much power. FIDE is a NATO puppet effectively and is an invalid global sports organisation.
