have you, and I say this from a place of concern, been living under a rock? there are deep time reasons for the current state of the region and most of them are a direct result of imperial powers (UK, US, et al.) sticking their self interested cod pieces into other peoples sand.
perhaps I am misunderstanding your comment, but the apparent level of reductive “us vs them” ideation is not helpful.
The current situation mostly has to do with the consistent history of Arab aggression regarding any possible Jewish state.
Let’s just have a thought experiment: say you live in a house that’s owned by your father. He and I get into a fight, I whoop his ass, and then after that I decide that the house is now no longer his to do with as he pleases, and instead I move a random guy from Milwaukee into the house with you. You’re not happy with this and are rightly pissed off, but you didn’t “own” the house to begin with and I don’t give a shit about what you have to say, so I ignore you. After a few months you and this dude are not getting along and get into it. I don’t like that you’re giving my man shit so I give him a bat to beat you with anytime you complain. He in turn uses the bat to expand into other rooms in the house - now he wants your bathroom, your kitchen, your other bedrooms…until after a while he’s taken over the house and you’re living in a closet. What’s more, you can’t get in or out of the house without passing through “his” property now, so you’re forced to rely on him for everything. And if you complain, you’re told that you’re being prejudiced against him and trying to eradicate him from existence. Meanwhile he continually keeps encroaching on your remaining closet space. When you do get fed up from time to time and throw shit at him, he responds by absolutely demolishing your remaining closet space and making it uninhabitable. But he assures you and the neighbors that you’re the one abusing him and he’s within his right to defend himself against your unjustified and unprovoked attacks. After all, it’s his property and you just hate him for no reason. And at this point, you’re not even talking about wanting him out of the house anymore - you’re just talking about wanting to have restored access to a bathroom and kitchen. But that’s not going to fly with my guy. Instead, he figures he can just pancake you in the closet and then do that big renovation project he’s been planning for 60+ years. And if you don’t agree with that plan? Well, then you’re just being hateful and want to see him eradicated clearly.
How would you feel in this situation?
Countries aren’t houses and your analogy is fatally flawed. I’ll write you a better one.
Let’s say I live in a neighborhood. New people move into this neighborhood, people who say their ancestors used to live here. Fine, whatever, the HOA let them in and I’m fine with it.
Enough of these people move into this neighborhood and have a different enough culture that they decide they want to form their own HOA.
What is my appropriate response to this situation? Should I negotiate which houses belong to the new HOA and which to the old? Or should I decide that the best thing to do is to violently kick all those people out of the neighborhood and shoot anyone who wants a new HOA?
Because the second thing is 1948. Arabs declared war, lost and lost badly, and have been trying to unwind the consequences of their belligerence ever since - usually with more belligerence.
Countries aren’t houses…
No shit. It’s an analogy.
Also, in your analogy, these people are somehow magically just moving in as if space and housing is freely available when in reality everyone moving in did it by taking away land from and displacing the people already living in the neighborhood. Of course the people being displaced would feel a type of way about it.
Also, why should the original neighbors have to negotiate with a group of people who moved in against their will and are now slowly starting to take over and assert their presence and values on the original neighborhood home owners? (And let’s be clear - an HOA is generally a representative body serving the interest of the neighborhood, so it does not apply in this case as the “HOA” in the historical sense never agreed with this move in the first place. It was the land developers who don’t even live in the city or state that made the decision because it was most profitable for them and served their interests. The neighbors had zero say in the whole thing to begin with).
Besides all of that, if we just take the history out of it completely, and just look at the last 8 months: does Israel seem to you like a sane nation? Are their actions and indiscriminate killings justified in your mind? Just based on what we have all seen and what’s publicly available from the last 8 months
Also, in your analogy, these people are somehow magically just moving in as if space and housing is freely available
This is exactly how Jews immigrated to mandatory Palestine. They bought houses or land and moved in.
Also, why should the original neighbors have to negotiate with a group of people who moved in against their will
They have the choice to negotiate or not, but if they choose war and lose, then their lot is to reckon with the consequences of their actions. Vae victus, as the Gauls said to the Romans.
Besides all of that, if we just take the history out of it completely, and just look at the last 8 months: does Israel seem to you like a sane nation
Not entirely. It seems like a nation which has been radicalized by decades of failures at peace initiatives and the same decades of unrelenting violence directed at their civilians. But at least they didn’t start the war in Gaza.
They have the choice to negotiate or not, but if they choose war and lose, then their lot is to reckon with the consequences of their actions. Vae victus, as the Gauls said to the Romans.
You sir, are an asshole. You have no moral high ground here and in the face of starving civilians, your beliefs, attitudes and viewpoint ring of hollow and despicable demagoguery. Your soap box is built of boards of blood and suffering and we can ALL see it, pooling around your feet. You’re waving a sign that says “Good people of Earth, despise me, oppose me, ostracize me and disregard my words.”
It’s not OK. You have picked the wrong point of view and when you open your mouth or reach for your keyboard to dispense it, nothing will wash the resulting stench from you, because you’re standing on top of this and there is NO WAY to make that a good look. No amount of reasonableness, logic or polite discourse will put you on the right side or make you persuasive.
The side you support has already lost the moral debate and now it’s just the practical matter of what can be done about it, given the geopolitical and cultural realities surrounding it. The world will never forgive you for standing where you stand. Someday, you may realize you need to forgive yourself and when that happens, MAYBE we can have a different conversation.
Until then, farewell.
lmao
Gross.
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It seems like a nation which has been radicalized by decades of failures at peace initiatives and the same decades of unrelenting violence directed at their civilians.
This, imo, is beautifully stated, and on its own could apply to either side depending on framing. Which is why the entire situation is even more sad and frustrating.
Even though I disagree with you on the overall perception of Israel/Palestine, I respect your pursuit of open dialogue so ill ask this since you’re seemingly open to engaging in good faith: what would be the ideal solution to bring about an immediate end the extreme bloodshed and shelling of Gaza from a pro-Isrseli perspective? (No gotchas or setups, genuinely interested)
Ideally, Israel would agree to end the blockade and withdraw from Gaza. Hamas would resign from office and be replaced by some form of responsible administration which will not permit using Gaza as a base for violent attacks against Israel. The international community could contribute to the rebuilding of Gaza, and without war and with responsible administrators in charge, Gaza could begin to have some forms of an economy.
I do not think democracy in Gaza would be a good idea, as they’d just elect another government like Hamas and then we would be back at the prospect of war in the region. Perhaps some sort of administration appointed by the Arab League.
Maybe, if there was peace long enough, they could even resume guest worker programs so Palestinians could commute to Israel for work.
I don’t like Israel or the Netanyahu administration. They’re right wing nationalists who aren’t really devoted to peace. And I’d like to see something like the 2005 disengagement from Gaza happening in the West Bank, but I don’t think that lovely daydream will happen given all the violence coming from Gaza since then.
But the reason I tend to favor Israel over Palestine is, well, they haven’t been the ones starting these wars. Even if they’re dickheads, they’re dickheads who have historically at least been open to peace or willing to accept peace.
My best friend is Egyptian. I don’t think this conflict is ever going to go away, truly. So much of it really is rooted in a pervasive sentiment of antisemitism pervasive throughout the Arab world. But if an appropriately capable and interested leader took office and could control the population of Gaza while refusing to allow jihadis to seek the death of Jews, we could have peace.
Hmmm, let’s give you another analogy, perhaps you would understand it better, if you regularly beat your dog to a pulp, and finally your dog decides to bite you, whose fault will that be? Yours or your dog’s fault?
This is exactly how Jews immigrated to mandatory Palestine. They bought houses or land and moved in.
Perhaps you should read this article and tell me about the peaceful Jews again: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
Prior to 1920, the Jews presence in the region of Israel was more or less negligeable. Even when Israel was founded they got the lion share of the territory while also being a minority. They evicted a couple of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their ancestral land and until today, they are refusing their right to return. Hmmm I wonder why Arab states were pissed with them.
Shall we also discuss the illegal settlements or the numerous checkpoints, preventing the basic human rights of the Palestinians of free movement? Seriously you should stop sucking Israel’s propaganda and open your eyes.
